24 Hr. Shift

[bestcoast]

Well, colin and myself both mentioned it in posts so it might as well be a thread. I quess all the pro's and con's you guys can think about we can post here. Like i have said in previous posts i'm in favour of at least giving it a go......any other thoughts???? .....cheers...

[colin911]

Thanks BestCoast for doing the new thread.

Coupla questions to pose ... How do you pick vacation? Lieu days? Booking sick (is it considered 2 days for 1 24 hr shift)?

Does going to the 24 mean any loss of jobs due to overstaffing or would it be the same as the old schedule?

I'll think of more as they come to me.

Colin

[Leafs Fan]

I believe staffing should be the same Colin. You are still covering the same amount of hours in the week and still require 4 platoons to average the work week to 42 hours. Presently we work a 24 hour shift once a month on sundays and if you book sick for that shift it counts as two and the same goes for luie days as well. But I think all that could be worked out in negotiations.
My question, I have heard that on a particular style of the 24 hour shift you could end up working at least one day of 5 weekends straight, that would suck especially in the summer. can anybody comment on this.

[bestcoast]

Our local did quite an in depth study on the 24 hr shift to put the facts out to the members a few years back. It didn't make it to the table for our last contract but maybe the next one. They traveled to Seattle to see how the guys down there liked it, and it answered a lot of questions that guys had. I'll see if i can dig it up at work next set and see if it can answer some of the questions.....cheers

[BillyBlazes]

Toronto is starting a pilot 24 hour test in District 42 in January. This district will be compared other districts taht are still doing the 10/14 shift.
The 24 shift that Toronto that we are proposing is stil going to give us two complete weekends off a month smiliar to the 10/14 that we work now.
We had association reps tour a large number of departments in Canada and the US that are working the 24 hour. They have put alot of work into the program on our behalf.

[bestcoast]

BB, how will it work if you need a day off and have someone working for you. Do you take the entire 24hr's off or can you work half a day?? Just curious.........Cheers

[BillyBlazes]

I believe that it is a day for a day for substitutions!
I will have to investigate further.

[scoop422]

bestcoast and Billy we will be able to do 12 hour duty exchanges and can work 36 hours in a row. We can also use 12 hour sick days but must book 24 lieu days.

[Rescue78]

We've been using this shift for a year now. Just over 50% wanted to give it a try. We just voted again and after a year, 81% want to keep it.

Sick days do cost you 2 days. Trade can be done for 24 or 12 hours. We can't work 36 hours like Scoop mentionned. We also need a full 24hrs off before you can come in on trade or OT. OT is a 12 hour shift.

Our 24 hour shift format allowed us to keep our 2 week-ends a month free and our 7 days off stretch as well. You work 7 days out of 28.

Colin -- Staffing is not an issue. The year still has 365 days and the day still has 24 hours. If you keep a 4 crew system, then you got the same amount of people covering the same amount of hours.

[Leafs Fan]

Rescue78, It was my understanding that your city CEO is going to reccommend to council that they not let you keep the 24 hour shift because he doesen't like the fact the firefighters would only be working 7 or 8 days a month. Can you give me any insight?

[Rescue78]

LF

You are right that the city expressed their intentions to force us back to 10/14.

However, after numerous meetings between the city and our Association, it seems like we are on an extended trial period for one more year.

The lettre of confirmation hasn't been received yet, but it seems pretty solid.

[L477]

My department has been working the 24 Hr shift for at least 8-9 years. A number of the guys said there wifes would divorce them if we went to that system. After a one year trial period we had 100% approval (wifes included). Most of the other questions have been answered from the other posts. I will add though that local politicians and maybe the front office would like to see the 24's replaced. Unfounded reason include no training takes place if you are working part of a weekend, sick time is up. For both of those scenarios the exact opposite is more the norm in my department.
A comment I hear often is what if you have to deal with numerous fires or emergencies in a 24 shift (won't you be too tired) If you have a good officer this is not a problem as he should have the safety of the crew foremost in his obligations to the department and the community. This means crew replacement via existing policy ie. call back/in. If you do not have these systems in place you should be looking into this before venturing in to 24's.

[Fireknight]

Are you guys thinking of going to a 24 shift BC? It comes up here every now and again, but we keep voting it down, I guess we want to see Toronto work out the bugs, we already work one 24 shift a month.

[bestcoast]

Are you guys thinking of going to a 24 shift BC? It comes up here every now and again, but we keep voting it down, I guess we want to see Toronto work out the bugs, we already work one 24 shift a month.
There was a lot of talk about it a few years back but it has kind of died down. Our local did a study on it, going and visiting other locals that where doing it to get the pros and cons. It never really got off the ground though, you know Firefighters and change aren't a good mix.....Oh well I would have liked to of given it a try......:(.....BC....

[scoop422]

I work in one of the test stations in Toronto and a couple of guys at our hall who didin't want the 24 are starting to like it already.

[dentedhead]

There was a lot of talk about it a few years back but it has kind of died down. Our local did a study on it, going and visiting other locals that where doing it to get the pros and cons. It never really got off the ground though, you know Firefighters and change aren't a good mix.....Oh well I would have liked to of given it a try......:(.....BC....


200 years of tradition, unimpeded by progress.:-)

Dentedhead

[smoke286]

You really need to specify what 24 hour shift you are interested in. Our Dept has worked a 24 hour shift system for as long as I ca remember. originally it was 24/48 with a Kelly day. then about 25 years ago Managment tried a 10/14 schedule This lasted less then a year and was abandoned apparently because it was costing more money. Then we went to 24/72 which we have to this day.

Its a strait 24/72 system which differs from what they are trying in Toronto (I was in Niagra Falls for a Union Conference this past fall and some Toronto guys tried to explain their's to me, but it seemed unecessarily complicated) Ours is quite simple, A 4 platoon system that allows for 1- 24 hour period on shift followed by 3 off We get one "full" weekend off a month i.e. Friday Saturday and Sunday. If you take 1 day annual leave or 1 sick day you are off for 7 strait days.

We are very attached to it here, it works very well for those with second jobs. If the city tried to change it now they would face quite a bit of resistance.

If anyone has any questions I'll try to answer them to the best of my abilities

[Leafs Fan]

You really need to specify what 24 hour shift you are interested in. Our Dept has worked a 24 hour shift system for as long as I ca remember. originally it was 24/48 with a Kelly day. then about 25 years ago Managment tried a 10/14 schedule This lasted less then a year and was abandoned apparently because it was costing more money. Then we went to 24/72 which we have to this day.

Its a strait 24/72 system which differs from what they are trying in Toronto (I was in Niagra Falls for a Union Conference this past fall and some Toronto guys tried to explain their's to me, but it seemed unecessarily complicated) Ours is quite simple, A 4 platoon system that allows for 1- 24 hour period on shift followed by 3 off We get one "full" weekend off a month i.e. Friday Saturday and Sunday. If you take 1 day annual leave or 1 sick day you are off for 7 strait days.

We are very attached to it here, it works very well for those with second jobs. If the city tried to change it now they would face quite a bit of resistance.

If anyone has any questions I'll try to answer them to the best of my abilities

When we were doing the research on the 24 hour shift we realized there were different models to chose from. We chose the one currently in trial in Kingston and i think TOronto based on more weekends off. In our current 10/14 we work 1 24 hour Sunday shift and that gives us two full weekends off. It is very hard to convince some of the older salts that the 24 is a good thing. Could you specify what was costing more $$ on the 10/14 shift you tried ? We are always looking for new points to negotiate with.

[scoop422]

Everyday at shift change guys are late or book sick or whatever so someone gets 1/2 hour here and there for O.T. On the 10/14 there are two shift changes daily, the 24 only has one so that saves the city. If sick time goes down or less injuries occur that saves the city.
Smoke, we went with our version of the 24 so we would still have two full weekends off every month. We also get a full seven days off a month and a full four days off a month.

[smoke286]

Sounds cool, if a bit complicated. No Rocket Scientists down here you know. Its hard enough to get somes guys to show up every fouth day. By the way, no one seems too concerned about the lack of weekends off here. I guess its all what your used to. Personally you'd have a hard time trying to convince me 10/14 is a better shift

[scoop422]

You know how much firefighters love change.

[bestcoast]

You know how much firefighters love change.
Oh yeah, we embrace it...:rolleyes:...LOL....BC..

[FLASHOVER05]

As far as I know Richmond Hill and Oshawa are using the 24 hour shift....

[smoke286]

In the eastern US 24/72 is considered the Cadillac of shifts

[RESQTEK]

One question that has come up at my station regarding the 24 hour shift is how other departments deal with relief for extremely busy stations. My station has been known to do 70 calls in a 24 hour period. At what point do you make the call that rest is needed?

[bestcoast]

One question that has come up at my station regarding the 24 hour shift is how other departments deal with relief for extremely busy stations. My station has been known to do 70 calls in a 24 hour period. At what point do you make the call that rest is needed?
70 runs, hope that aint a one piece hall...BC.....

[RESQTEK]

No it's not. We have 1 pump, 1 aerial, 1 hazmat, and 1 rescue. The pump would have been on about 60 of those 70 calls.

[smoke286]

Holy crap thats a lot more runs then I want to do, Our busiest station averages about 15 runs per shift, the station I'm in about 6 to 10. I have no idea how one would deal with that volume of calls. I guess you could check with Boston, see how busy they get

[smoke286]

I guess one could argue on the other side of the coin that you would get 3 full days to rest up after a busy shift. I believe the IAFF has a study that claims 24/72 is best for recuperation in regards to health and fitness. I've never seen it though, I understand its there for ammunition if managment wants to try and change the shift system

[smoke286]

Say Resqtek. Your Pumper averages 60 calls in a 24 hour period. I'm presuming you work some sort of 10/14 shift? So if you lets say you get 40 runs on the 14 hour part of the shift. Then you come back the next day and do it all again the next day? Man thats a lot of runs I'd be totally knackered.

[bestcoast]

No it's not. We have 1 pump, 1 aerial, 1 hazmat, and 1 rescue. The pump would have been on about 60 of those 70 calls.
Bacardi anyone???....;).....BC...

[RESQTEK]

That high call volume happens in the dead of winter. It is not always that busy. If you average out the years calls it is about 20 per day(6700/yr). On average the 24 hour shifts would work out great. I was just curious as to how these spurts of insanity could be dealt with. We currently work two 10 hour days and two 14 hour nights.

[smoke286]

We get occaisionaly insanity here, the worst being Guy Fawkes Night in Novenber (locally known as Bonfire Night), when Central can get up around 50 or 60 calls, usually it doesnt start to get crazy till dark and we just call in extra personel and put on an extra pumper at that station.

[kriand]

As far as I know Richmond Hill and Oshawa are using the 24 hour shift....
Unless they just changed , Richmond hill is NOT on the 24. I believe they are 5D, off 5, 5N, off 5.

[HOSE_HOUND]

No doubt about it, a busy 24 shift tends to wipe you out, but nothing 72 hours off won't give you back. Also, take 1 annual day off and you have a week off. Work only 7 or 8 days a month total. Time off for ME!

[smoke286]

Hows she cuttin' dere buddy?

[bestcoast]

The 24 hr shift is a big topic again around the Firehalls in Vancouver. We voted in favour of trying it on a trial basis a few years back but it was gonged by the Chief and City Hall. It might be presented differently this time if we decide to try again...fingers crossed that we do...I would love to try it.....BC......

[BCFFFV]

I second that BC.....I think it would be a great idea. Less trips into the city, should be far less sick days also for the city (well if they paid for them anyways.....) Of all the ones suggested I'd only want to do it if it was the 24/on...24/off...24/on...5 day off model.

[scoop422]

Our's sounds screwy but it is 1 on 2 off, 1 on 7 off, 1 on 1 off, 1 on 2 off, 1 on 2 off, 1 on 2 off, 1 on 5 off. It is still a 42 hr work week and it gives 2 complete long weekends off a month. We are 7 months into our trial and I like it much better. We haven't got any solid numbers yet but supposedly the sick time is down. If you have a crazy busy night, you spend the next one in your bed at home. No more 4 in a row. The best is no more afternoon rush hour.

[smoke286]

Yup thats pretty screwy. For us simple minded fellers down here on da rock work, off, off, off is a lot simpler

[ssifire]

You really need to specify what 24 hour shift you are interested in. Our Dept has worked a 24 hour shift system for as long as I ca remember. originally it was 24/48 with a Kelly day. then about 25 years ago Managment tried a 10/14 schedule This lasted less then a year and was abandoned apparently because it was costing more money. Then we went to 24/72 which we have to this day.

If anyone has any questions I'll try to answer them to the best of my abilities

I'm interested in learning more on the 24hr system, as currently I work 4 days on 4 days off, but on my days on, I'm the duty officer at night. So really I work 96 hrs on, 96 hrs off.

24 on 48 off makes sense to me, and we could probably sell it to the board, but why would cities accept 24/72?

4 on 4 off is one for one.
24/48 one for two in our favor.
24/72 one for three.

Seems like a hard sell. I'm all for working less and spending more time with the family, but working 7-8 days every month seems a little sparse.

Can someone help me see the light?

[smoke286]

There are all sorts of arguments for 24/72 Our Dept chose it originally because they claim it was cheaper then 10/14 The IAFF has studies apparently that show that 24/72 results in less sick time and injury time, thereby saving the employer money. Check with the IAFF, I'm sure they can provide you with more ammunition

[smoke286]

P.S. 24/72 works out to 42 hrs per week

[Firefighter1680]

I have mentioned it to a few of our guys out here and NOOOOOOOO WAy would they do it.. I have been trying to explain the benefeits etc .. They dont see it!! Im going to keep trying thought would be awesome.. I think thougth with our amalgamation with the medics, it wont fly..

[smoke286]

You would never convince our guys to go with another shift, but I guess it's all in what your used to. Still its hard to find fault with being off 75% of the time

[Firefighter1680]

I totally agree, never work a full weekend again, only working 8 days a month.... Guys dont see it..?? I dont get that.. BUt like I said It think beacuse we are amalgamating with the medics it would make it hard to do...

[Pinky]

I am interested in bringing the issue of 24 hour schedules to the membership of my department in Markham, ON.

I would be really interested to speak to anyone, especially in Canada who was involved in researching it for theirs. I am trying to gather info to present to the membership, and would be greatful to have access to any info packages, Powerpoint presentations etc. someone may already have, as a starting point.

[scoop422]

Talk to our Local 3888 in Toronto. We have finished our first test year and we will find out if it will go city wide this week. Sick time is down as is comp claims in the pilot district.

[smoke286]

Thats cool Scoop, but your guys are using a somewhat different system right? That gives you 2 full weekends off a month?

[jeffhubb]

24 hr Monday - 2 off - 24 hr Thursday - 7 off (weekend off)
24 hr Friday - 1 off - 24 hr Sunday - 2 off (1 day of weekend)
24 hr Wednesday - 2 off- 24 hr Saturday - 2 off (1 day of weekend)
24 hr Tuesday - 5 off (weekend off)
7 24 hr shifts in a 28 day cycle.....

[BillyBlazes]

The results are in we voted over 82% in favour of trying the 24 hour shift job wide next year in Toronto.

[smoke286]

So you get 2 full weekends off a mnoth, but one weekend you work on Fri and Sun?

[jeffhubb]

Yes that one weekend is not the best but it had to be to meet a few requirements - 2 weekends completely off, at least 48 hrs off between shifts (except that one point in the cycle) and 2 long stretches off (7 days and 5 days).
These requirements came from the floor, executive, 24 hr committee, H&S consultants and the City. It almost mirrors our 10/14 schedule and I think that's what the aim was. Not sure on all the history or how it was developed but this is what I got out of it

[smoke286]

I spoke to some of your guys about it last fall at the OPFFA training seminar. I must admit it sounds like I would prefer our own shift, much simpler, and we still get one full weekend off per month and one with Sat and Sun off. Only a personal choice I realize, but that 72 hours off after each and every shift is sweet

[jeffhubb]

I just like the 7 day and 5 day stretch off every month. Who needs VA and LD with that......but when you do add VA and LD's then it's a nice chunk of time off.

[NinetySeven]

Well boys...sorry to report that Kingston will revert back to the former 10/14 shift in January. This is after two great years of 24hr bliss. Although a year ago 85% of us voted to keep the 24's, and even now I believe that number has increased, the head of human resources at city hall has decided that we shouldn't have it. With no support from our Chiefs our hope of retaining our favorite shift has dwindled. We now must wait for a contract settlement to try to get what we want. I'll tell you boys, theres nothing better if you can get it, and if you get it fight to keep it!......97

[bestcoast]

Well boys...sorry to report that Kingston will revert back to the former 10/14 shift in January. This is after two great years of 24hr bliss. Although a year ago 85% of us voted to keep the 24's, and even now I believe that number has increased, the head of human resources at city hall has decided that we shouldn't have it. With no support from our Chiefs our hope of retaining our favorite shift has dwindled. We now must wait for a contract settlement to try to get what we want. I'll tell you boys, theres nothing better if you can get it, and if you get it fight to keep it!......97
Well that sucks... Good old HR screws the fire department again!!And you can bet when you guys try to get it back during contract time the city is gonna want you to give up something in return. Thats too bad 97, especially since the boys seemed to like it. Don't know if we will ever even get the chance out here in Vancouver to give it a try going by our relationship with HR and the Brass......BC....

[smoke286]

Sure you will BC, all you gotta do is tell 'em theres no way you're willing to work 24/72 and bingo, you'll have it so fast it'll make your head spin. :)

[bestcoast]

Sure you will BC, all you gotta do is tell 'em theres no way you're willing to work 24/72 and bingo, you'll have it so fast it'll make your head spin. :)
LOL....true enough.........BC....

[smoke286]

Does anyone in Canada work a 56 hour week?

[Punctualdeer]

The results are in we voted over 82% in favour of trying the 24 hour shift job wide next year in Toronto.
How do you choose your vacation ?. His it munday to sunday or sunday to satherday

[smoke286]

You take your A/L in 24 hour periods, same as you work it. So if you want the first 3 weeks in August off you put in for A/L on the days your shift would normally work in that period, probably 6 shifts. Conversely one day annual leave taken at any time results in a full week off. I worked Saturday this past week so my next scheduled shift is Wednesday, if I take a days annual leave on that day, the next day I have to work is Sunday. Seven days off in a row, if you follow me?

[jeffhubb]

In TO we get 6 24 hour lieu days/year and min. 3 weeks (goes up with senority) vacation/year. Vacation is considered from a Monday to Sunday period.
So you either get 1 24 hour period (Tues) off which stretches to 8 days off, 2 24 hour periods (Wed & Sat) off which stretches to 8 days off, 2 24 hour periods (Fri & Sun) off which stretches to 12 days off or 2 24 hour periods (Mon & Thurs) off which stretches to 16 days off.
Then if you're lucky enough with your lieu day picks you can add on more time off on either end of vacation and really sretch your time off.

[bestcoast]

In TO we get 6 24 hour lieu days/year and min. 3 weeks (goes up with senority) vacation/year. Vacation is considered from a Monday to Sunday period.
So you either get 1 24 hour period (Tues) off which stretches to 8 days off, 2 24 hour periods (Wed & Sat) off which stretches to 8 days off, 2 24 hour periods (Fri & Sun) off which stretches to 12 days off or 2 24 hour periods (Mon & Thurs) off which stretches to 16 days off.
Then if you're lucky enough with your lieu day picks you can add on more time off on either end of vacation and really sretch your time off.
Our executive is taking a good hard look at TO's 24 hr shift and its possibley going to be in our upcoming contract negotiation's.....BC......

[Fireseeker]

In terms of safety, isn't it dangerous to work such a job as firefighter for 24 hours straight? I understand that no matter what you are in your bed the next night, but still...this isn't a job where you're chillin in front of a computer all shift. It sounds pretty exhausting which may lead to errors from fatigue?

[smoke286]

There is statistical evidence available through the IAFF that shows that 24/72 actually results in less injury and sick time loss then any other shift system in the fire service

[ABFF37]

In terms of safety, isn't it dangerous to work such a job as firefighter for 24 hours straight? I understand that no matter what you are in your bed the next night, but still...this isn't a job where you're chillin in front of a computer all shift. It sounds pretty exhausting which may lead to errors from fatigue?

To be blunt, no. There are plenty of departments out there that run the 24 hour shifts, and they have no more incidence of injury etc. due to fatigue.

In fact as Smoke286 said, there are often fewer book offs and fewer injuries in many departments that run this shift system. Furthermore there are systems in place in many departments to make sure that if a crew in a busy hall is getting hammered they can be sent to a different station that is slower for a bit of a break, while the crew from the slower hall will come into the busier hall for a while. Any firefighter that I have ever talked to that works for a department that runs 24's absolutely loves it.

AB

[smoke286]

ayup, what he said ;)

[Fireseeker]

Personally, I think I would love it too. My personal belief with the sick time is that they probably don't wanna lose two sick days (12 hr periods). It would seem that everyone loves this shift because they don't have to come into the station so many times (what is it 7 out of 28 days?) but really to work 24 straight...might work great for the younger guys but I could see resistence by the older ones.

If you can be pulled out into a less busy station then that should work, but if you can't get some rest (sleep) there is no way your body is functioning optimally. Humans were never meant to be awake/alert/working like a machine for 24 hours straight. Then again, can't be much different from a regular night shift...when you're up all day anyway and then have to say up through the night.

Surprised to see ALL Toronto stations go 24...that's gotta be a busy city!

[smoke286]

Actually 24/72 is much better for us older guys. You have 72 hours to recuperate after a shift

[BCFFFV]

Actually 24/72 is much better for us older guys. You have 72 hours to recuperate after a shift

I don't want to see us lose our 4 days off. I'd rather try the....24 on/ 24 off/ 24 on/ 5 day off schedule.

I'd be surprised if our dept. ever changed from our current system. Guess we'll have to wait and see. I agree the 24 should be much better for sick time.

[Fireseeker]

I guess many dept's follow the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" idea. I too would think it would be better to have the 24 on/24 off/24 on/5 off.

All I have to say is that regardless of the sched. FF's have a sweet sched.!

PS. Just wondering what FF's opinions are on the differences of these classic shifts...what do you feel is better on the body:

2 days/2 nights - 4 off

OR

4 days - 4 off - 4 nights - 4 off

My thought is that the second scenario of shifts is more in tune with a body cycle and is easier on the body then going back and forth

[BCFFFV]

[QUOTE=Fireseeker]I guess many dept's follow the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" idea. I too would think it would be better to have the 24 on/24 off/24 on/5 off.

All I have to say is that regardless of the sched. FF's have a SWEET SCHED.!





Well first off I'd like people to realize that firefighting has different demands on a person's body than a regular job. I'd compare it to a Football career vs. a Baseball career. Pro Football players play about 1 game a week because they usually need that much more time to heal between games than someone who plays Baseball. I think major league Baseball players play about 160 games also vs the NFL playing about 20 games a year. Football is very hard on the body.

And with firefighting it's a similar situation. You can go from being at complete rest to having to pry and force large doors open, swinging axes into unforgiving building materials, lifting very heavy ladders, dragging and pulling hoses, lifting patients etc. etc. etc. And most of the time it's hard to use good lifting techniques. It's an easy job to get a serious injury. I believe that if we worked M-F 9-5 like a regular job we would have a million little nagging injuries that would never heal. Sick days and WCB claims would skyrocket. Yeah, our shifts seem sweet at times but really I need the rest both physically and mentally after my set if I've been busy. And I think it's important to have a good rest between sets for all emergency workers.

[ABFF37]

All I have to say is that regardless of the sched. FF's have a sweet sched.!

PS. Just wondering what FF's opinions are on the differences of these classic shifts...what do you feel is better on the body:

2 days/2 nights - 4 off

OR

4 days - 4 off - 4 nights - 4 off

Yeah 4 on and 4 off is a good schedule, I do 2 days and 2 nights, and I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world...it's this shift system that is the reason that I have a tee time in about an hour. But there's a lot more to it than just having large amounts of time off.

BCFFFV hit the nail on the head when he said that he needs the rest time after a busy set. It's not uncommon if you've had a really busy set of nights to spend half of the first day off or more sleeping to recover from the high physical demands of the job.

You could spend a few of your days off recovering from a very physical call that you attended, or similarly to recover mentally from a difficult call that you have had to attend. For example, a few weeks back I had a very busy tour, a complicated vehicle extrication on the first day with critical patient injuries, a large loss fire on the second day, and another vehicle extrication on the second night shift involving a fatality of a 20 year old kid.

After that tour I was physically tired from all of the hard work that had been done, and mentally I was tired too and somewhat stressed out. I can tell you that the 4 off that I had was just enough to get myself feeling back in top shape to go back to work the next week at 100%. Firefighting can take so much out of you that you really need this time to recover. So as sweet as it is, it doesn't necessarily mean that you come off shift and now have 4 easy care free days off to play around.

Not to mention that you work a variety of weekends, holidays, and special personal days (birthdays, anniverseries, kids soccer games etc.) there are some sacrifices to be made for the shift system that we have. If you come off shift like I have this week and feel pretty good and can get out golfing the first day, well great! But if you come off it feeling exhausted and stressed out, and you spend much of the time resting...knowing that you'll be going back on shift in a few days over the whole weekend and missing your mothers birthday...well you get the idea;)

There's lots to it, and it does take some adaptation, but once you're used to it you'd never want to go back to a 9-5 set up.

AB

[Fire911]

This is a great schedule, our Department has used this for decades. We work 24hrs. on and 72hrs. off.

[bestcoast]

This is a great schedule, our Department has used this for decades. We work 24hrs. on and 72hrs. off.
Just a dream so far for us in Vancouver!!........
P.S. where are you at bro?? south of the line??....BC...........

[smoke286]

Personally, I think I would love it too. My personal belief with the sick time is that they probably don't wanna lose two sick days (12 hr periods). It would seem that everyone loves this shift because they don't have to come into the station so many times (what is it 7 out of 28 days?) but really to work 24 straight...might work great for the younger guys but I could see resistence by the older ones.

If you can be pulled out into a less busy station then that should work, but if you can't get some rest (sleep) there is no way your body is functioning optimally. Humans were never meant to be awake/alert/working like a machine for 24 hours straight. Then again, can't be much different from a regular night shift...when you're up all day anyway and then have to say up through the night.

Surprised to see ALL Toronto stations go 24...that's gotta be a busy city!

Again you need to realize, lots od Dept's in North America work 24/72 and love it. In the N.E. US 24/72 is considered the cadilac of shifts and many other depts are trying to work towards it. I have never heard anyone who works 24/72 complaining about it, and you know how firefighters love to complain.

[bestcoast]

Just found out who one of our new deputy's is. We aint seeing no 24hr shift anytime soon.(Between our current "chief" and this beauty) gonna be an interesting 5-10 years, this guy aint a big fan of supression cuz of the gears he got when he took his 10 + yrs mechanic senority and wrote his Lt. exams. Now hes our boss!!!!...Morale going downnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn..........BC.............

[smoke286]

Aint it a kick in the a$$. I think they pick these losers on purpose , just to see how low they can drive morale :(

[hrecruit]

I have never heard anyone who works 24/72 complaining about it, and you know how firefighters love to complain.
Well union guys anyway lol sorry bud had to be said.

[CanadianFF31]

Well union guys anyway lol sorry bud had to be said.

You must not be from a composite department!!!

I've experienced the finest of POC complaining in a hall that is being transitioned from fully POC to fully staffed by career FFs. It's UNBELIEVABLE the level of complaining and laziness that has resulted!

Complaining is human nature, it gives us something to talk about. And since firefighters (both career and volly) spend so much time chatting, complaining is a reliable source of conversation topics!

[chawch]

I am sure the way it works in Woodstock is that you work 24 hrs. your off for 24hrs. Then you work another 24 and you are then off for 5 days, so it is an 8 day rotation with 4 platoons.
Hope this helps!

[ve2vfd]

The 24 hrs shift is currently being studied here in Montreal... god only knows what the outcome will be!

I would not mind it, but thats only my personal opinion.

Pat

[smoke286]

What do you use now ve, 10/14?

[ve2vfd]

Yup, montreal is on a 10/14 schedule

Our rotation is:

4 days on, 6 off (aka: 4 jours de jour)
3 nights on, 5 off (aka: 3 nuits)
2 days, sunday 24h, 3 nights, 4 off (aka: long stretch)

We have 4 teams and cover a 42 hrs week.

Pat

[smoke286]

24/72 could be adopted with too much problem by your dept, 4 platoon rotation as you have now 24 on 72 off, fairly simply really. After Annual Leave you wind up working 80 odd days a year

[oldboot]

Toronto has ratified a vote on a second year of job wide test for the 24 hr shift
It seems that management wanted more time to consider the pros and cons of going with the 24 on a permanent basis.

We have had one district that will have worked it for three years, but management just can’t figure if it is a bad or good thing. Does that surprise anyone!

Ask the boys and girls who work the thing and it seems to have a 91% approval rating…

Hey even oldboot likes it, and I hate change.

OB

[hrecruit]

start me 24's monday yeppie.

[FFWannabe]

Oldboot, is it still set up so the guys are off 24, on 24, off 24, on 24, then off 72 and on 24, etc??? Wasn't it something like that? I don't know the exact setup, but I know when I saw the shift card last summer, they were working 3 24's in 6 days.

ve2vfd, we're on the same schedule in Ottawa.

Sue :)

[smoke286]

Oldboot, is it still set up so the guys are off 24, on 24, off 24, on 24, then off 72 and on 24, etc??? Wasn't it something like that? I don't know the exact setup, but I know when I saw the shift card last summer, they were working 3 24's in 6 days.

ve2vfd, we're on the same schedule in Ottawa.

Sue :)
IIRC there is only one time per cycle that Toronto works 24 on 24 off 24 on and I think the break may be 5 days

[oldboot]

Oldboot, is it still set up so the guys are off 24, on 24, off 24, on 24, then off 72 and on 24, etc??? Wasn't it something like that? I don't know the exact setup, but I know when I saw the shift card last summer, they were working 3 24's in 6 days.

ve2vfd, we're on the same schedule in Ottawa.

Sue :)

Work
Week 1 Mon.....Thurs
Week 2 Fri.....Sunday
Week 3 Wed...Saturday
Week 4 Tues
And then starts all over again
Hope that helps....
OB

[FFWannabe]

Work
Week 1 Mon.....Thurs
Week 2 Fri.....Sunday
Week 3 Wed...Saturday
Week 4 Tues
And then starts all over again
Hope that helps....
OB

Thanks... nice schedule. It looks a little different now, has it been changed since the first, "we might do this?" it didn't seem right to have the days so close together...

Sue :)

[oldboot]

Thanks... nice schedule. It looks a little different now, has it been changed since the first, "we might do this?" it didn't seem right to have the days so close together...

Sue :)

Hi Sue
This is the shift we have been testing for the last couple of years.
We originally had three other ones to look at however this is the one that was agreed on by management and union.
Not all like it, but I bet all can agree that it is a lot better for the commute home with no drive in or home in the afternoon.
It has been a real savings on fuel and time for us commuters, with the way gas prices have been going it is like getting a raise in pay!

With holidays and Lieu days I end up working about 5 to 6 shifts a month.

[smoke286]

My understanding from Scott is that the schedule was adapted in order for you guys to keep two full weekends off a month, with 24/72 you only get one (Fri,Sat/Sun)

[TruckCo11]

with 24/72 you only get one (Fri,Sat/Sun)


Oh, hurt me with that schedule, please!! I would put up with that hardship to get 24/72!

I can't complain though, even though we work 24/48, we have 16 kelley days, and now that I have a little time on I also earn 12 vacation days.

The question I have though, is how do you Toronto guys (or anyone who works it) keep track of when you work? I can only imagine how many guys here would be late for work, forget they had to work, if we had a schedule like yours.

[oldboot]

Oh, hurt me with that schedule, please!! I would put up with that hardship to get 24/72!

I can't complain though, even though we work 24/48, we have 16 kelley days, and now that I have a little time on I also earn 12 vacation days.

The question I have though, is how do you Toronto guys (or anyone who works it) keep track of when you work? I can only imagine how many guys here would be late for work, forget they had to work, if we had a schedule like yours.
We are all given wallet size shift calendars so it really hasn’t been a problem with guys forgetting to come in. Also after you have worked it for a couple of months you get use to it and can easily remember your next shift.
Our shifts officially now change at 7am, however just about all of us come in at 6:30 or earlier which is nice to beat the traffic.

I can honestly say after working this for a year I would not like to go back to 10/14.

What is a Kelley day?
Are they like our Lieu days which are a day in Lieu of a statutory holiday?

OB

[smoke286]

Oh, hurt me with that schedule, please!! I would put up with that hardship to get 24/72!

Yeah, its a real hardship, but what ya gonna do :)

What is a Kelley day?

Oh I remember the stories about kelly days, changing days with yourself, coming in on overtime to work for themselves.

Our Dept worked 24/48 with Kelly days up till around 25 years ago, then we changed to 10/14 for less then a year, management lost their shirts on that one, we've been working 24/72 ever since.

We are all given wallet size shift calendars so it really hasn’t been a problem with guys forgetting to come in

Really? We have some guys have trouble with work one off three......

[FitSsikS]

I like the fact that the free ride is over for the city (Toronto).

We were allowed tremendous flexibilty at change-over (for our own good) and therefore the city rarely got stuck paying any overtime.

This was a problem in some halls with the odd fellow coming in at the official change-over times while everyone else came in early.

These days are gone and I know that the latest that I'm going to stay is
until 7 am, unless of course I'm at a call.

I find our present version of 24 schedule a little top heavy* and I would like to give the other pattern
(post #82) a try.

* I wonder if they are keeping statistics regarding sick/IDD time and this densely packed part of our 24?

[smoke286]

Your Local has a study showing less sick leave/ injury on duty with the 24 hour shift. We have a copy of it :)

[FitSsikS]

Your Local has a study showing less sick leave/ injury on duty with the 24 hour shift. We have a copy of it :)

No no, I meant what sickness we do have and when.

ie - during the week/weekend when we work friday and sunday with 24 hours
time off between them.

I have been a considerate employee and have managed to keep any illnesses that I have had (aside from mental) confined to our largest periods of off time.....gosh dern it! :)

[smoke286]

Aaaah, I see! Well it seems to me for some bizarre reason sick leave is higher on the weekends, no matter what shift you work.

I would not care to hazzard a guess as to why though

[ve2vfd]

Work
Week 1 Mon.....Thurs
Week 2 Fri.....Sunday
Week 3 Wed...Saturday
Week 4 Tues
And then starts all over again
Hope that helps....
OB

I'm jealous! :D

From what I hear thats whats being looked into here. I jost hope it goes thru some day. Things take time here... :(

Pat

[FitSsikS]

Aaaah, I see! Well it seems to me for some bizarre reason sick leave is higher on the weekends, no matter what shift you work.

I would not care to hazzard a guess as to why though

Try as they might to try and disguise or misplace the weekends in our scattered shift pattern...we can still find em. ;)

[TruckCo11]

What is a Kelley day?
Are they like our Lieu days which are a day in Lieu of a statutory holiday?

Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner, Boot. The Kelley day is officially called our ‘paid-off’ day. It’s basically a way for the city to keep from having to pay us overtime. Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, or FLSA, the city only needs to pay time and a half for hours worked over 206, in a 27 day period for employees who work a 24 hour shift. (my numbers might be slightly off, I’m going from memory here)
Every work cycle we are given one paid off day to reduce our work hours. It also allows the city to not pay us time and a half for all of our overtime shifts, as well. If a member is hired for OT, the first 18 hours is at straight time, with the last 6 at premium time.

I also earn 2 extra vacation days instead of having holidays off; it is 1 holiday day for the first 10 years, then at 10 years I now earn 2 holiday offs.
I would still gladly take 24/72.

[sgfs]

Does anyone know of a department that uses 48/6off as a sched? On paper it seems to work. I have seen a 48/96 off but no 48/6 off

[FitSsikS]

Does anyone know of a department that uses 48/6off as a sched? On paper it seems to work. I have seen a 48/96 off but no 48/6 off

This sounds similar to a shift that a co worker of mine came up with.

(Greg C. if you're out there all the cred goes to you! :))

You work 7 years straight...then you are done.

[smoke286]

LOL, I certainly wouldn't make it.

[mutts252]

Things take time here... :(

heh... "150 years of tradition unimpeded by progess"... :p things always seem to be on molasses-speed in the fire service...

[ve2vfd]

heh... "150 years of tradition unimpeded by progess"... :p things always seem to be on molasses-speed in the fire service...

Tell me about it!

And I guess the bigger a service it, the slower things move! :D

Pat

[cosmo]

And I guess the bigger a service it, the slower things move! :D

Pat

Aint that the truth..........

[bestcoast]

Has Toronto decided if they are sticking with the 24 hr shift yet permanetly??...........BC....................

[smoke286]

They are continuing on for another year as a pilot program apparently, However it seems management may be having second thoughts now

[BillyBlazes]

From what I have been told on the job is that the chiefs like the 24 hour shift. If the last vote is any indication the membership likes the 24 hour as well.

[colin911]

Sign of the times I guess ... we just voted as a membership to go to the city with the 24 hours shift as a contract submission. 65% of the members voted in favour ... pretty sure it won't go into effect until 2008 or 2009 at the earliest. (if the city accepts it, of course)

[bestcoast]

... we just voted as a membership to go to the city with the 24 hours shift as a contract submission.

What are they gonna want in return Colin??........BC..............

[colin911]

Don't know really ... probably go after our sick time. Admin. really wants to go to a STD/LTD instead of the accrual of sick days. Perhaps a zero increase in salary, District Chiefs out of the union ... won't know for sure until they start negotiating next week .... (for 2007, of course).

[oldboot]

Hey I like working the 24 however I would not give up anything to get it or keep it!

This shift has equal advantages for management and us Firefighters, but the day that they ask us for something to keep it ,is the day I say we go back to working 10 and 14’s.

[smoke286]

The problem is you never get something for nothing. There are advantages for management as well as fire fighters with the 24 hour shift, however, anything you submit to collective bargaining has a price

[oldboot]

Hey Smoke
As I am sure you are aware that We were in a very good negotiation position at the time to get the 24 as we just got a new Fire Chief (Stewart) and he was given a short period of time by council to improve morale.
He knew that the 24 was a hot topic and that the old Chief who was an AHOLE was against it, also the other candidate that was going for the chiefs job at the time was also against the 24
Also a new mayor that we had backed politically was also on our side.

A big plus for political action….

OB

[smoke286]

A big plus for political action….

Indeed it was

Not to mention some very astute bargaining on your local's behalf

[bestcoast]

old Chief who was an AHOLE was against it,

Thats the problem we are having in regards to the 24 hr shift. Our current chief (who has done jack sh*t for the job since hes been our chief) is dead against it. Don't know why, probably because it's something a majority of the members would like to give a try and thats good enough reason for him...................BC.........................

[bestcoast]

Question for FitSsikS, oldboot or any other brothers/sisters that work the 24 hr shift on the board. I've searched this thread to see if this question has been asked and can't find it. How does it work when you need a shift off. Can you get a sub for half of the shift or do you have to take the entire 24 hrs off??.That's one of the many questions we have out here about the 24 hr shift...........BC..............

[dentedhead]

Question for FitSsikS, oldboot or any other brothers/sisters that work the 24 hr shift on the board. I've searched this thread to see if this question has been asked and can't find it. How does it work when you need a shift off. Can you get a sub for half of the shift or do you have to take the entire 24 hrs off??.That's one of the many questions we have out here about the 24 hr shift...........BC..............

We dont work 24s but do have a regular 24 hr shift.We can do shift changes for part or all of the shift.

You could work the day and replace yourself for the night or vice versa or you can do the whole shift.OT is split and not given out in 24.However when we take a lieu you take the 24 regardless of what you want off.

Thats how we roll in our little corner dunno bout the big shops downtown.

Dentedhead

[FitSsikS]

Question for FitSsikS, oldboot or any other brothers/sisters that work the 24 hr shift on the board. I've searched this thread to see if this question has been asked and can't find it. How does it work when you need a shift off. Can you get a sub for half of the shift or do you have to take the entire 24 hrs off??.That's one of the many questions we have out here about the 24 hr shift...........BC..............

You can get a guy* to work a sub/exchange day for 1/2 a shift (12 hours) if you like. Or of course, for the whole thing.

If you take a shift off due to illness (24 hours) it costs you 2 sick days.

This also applies to "Ill Dependant Days" taken when a family member needs care. Quite often 12 hours is sufficient here....ie: look after the kid until the Mrs gets home.

So....every now and then I have to remind the Chief that illness which may have cost a firefighter 3 days in the past may in theory cost him 6 days now.


*It is suggested that it should be a firefighter......and perhaps even from the same dept!!!:) I have heard some stories........

[bestcoast]

You can get a guy* to work a sub/exchange day for 1/2 a shift (12 hours) if you like. Or of course, for the whole thing.

If you take a shift off due to illness (24 hours) it costs you 2 sick days.

This also applies to "Ill Dependant Days" taken when a family member needs care. Quite often 12 hours is sufficient here....ie: look after the kid until the Mrs gets home.

So....every now and then I have to remind the Chief that illness which may have cost a firefighter 3 days in the past may in theory cost him 6 days now.


*It is suggested that it should be a firefighter......and perhaps even from the same dept!!!:) I have heard some stories........

That clears it up, thanks.....................BC.................

[BillyBlazes]

There is a great story there about exchanges that is hard to believe but actually did occur!!

You can get a guy* to work a sub/exchange day for 1/2 a shift (12 hours) if you like. Or of course, for the whole thing.

If you take a shift off due to illness (24 hours) it costs you 2 sick days.

This also applies to "Ill Dependant Days" taken when a family member needs care. Quite often 12 hours is sufficient here....ie: look after the kid until the Mrs gets home.

So....every now and then I have to remind the Chief that illness which may have cost a firefighter 3 days in the past may in theory cost him 6 days now.


*It is suggested that it should be a firefighter......and perhaps even from the same dept!!!:) I have heard some stories........

[oldboot]

So....every now and then I have to remind the Chief that illness which may have cost a firefighter 3 days in the past may in theory cost him 6 days now.


[/SIZE]

Fits
Now if you are talking about single days off yes it will cost you 2 for 1, however when we worked our 10/14 if you took the 3 days off on the weekend it cost you 3 days, (Fri, Sat, Sun) now the equivalent of that same weekend you would only have to take the Saturday off, and it will cost you only two days. Hmmmm, maybe that’s why management was screaming that the statistics say we are seeing more Saturday sick time than in the past.
However as Mark Twain said "There are lies, damned lies and statistics."


We do have the ability to split this sick time, as in taking the first 12 hrs off if you need to go to the Doctors and then you can come back for the 12 on the night or even into 6 hr allotments if needed.
Personally from what I have seen in my command it appears to be neutral from our past practices.

OB

[FitSsikS]

Mark Twain said "There are lies, damned lies and statistics."


Yes, that is my point. The chief may want to use a ffs yearly sick time total to suggest something and it is my suggestion that we play with the numbers as well.

For instance:

You are sick and you take off 2 days from work (that's 4 work days).
You continue to be sick on your own time for a total of 5 days (that's 10). So...if the Chief happens to mention ....."Jeesh Fits, you had 4 days off there last week. You really should take some vitamins."*
I say, "It's worse than that Chief, I was sick for 10 days on my own time!"

*Actual quote, well....except the 'Fits' part

[smoke286]

Question for FitSsikS, oldboot or any other brothers/sisters that work the 24 hr shift on the board. I've searched this thread to see if this question has been asked and can't find it. How does it work when you need a shift off. Can you get a sub for half of the shift or do you have to take the entire 24 hrs off??.That's one of the many questions we have out here about the 24 hr shift...........BC..............

In our job you can get a guy to come in for you for an hour if you wish

[oldboot]

In our job you can get a guy to come in for you for an hour if you wish

Ya it is the same for us.
the hard part is trying to find someone who will work for just a hour.:)

[bestcoast]

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - It's not something most people would want to do but firefighters in Vancouver are pushing for the right to work 24 hours straight. Their union claims the long shift would make them more effective because they wouldn't be as tired.


Right now they work two10 hour days, followed by two 14 hour nights, and they say that really throws off their biological clocks. But the Deputy Chief is worried 24 hours without time off might make firefighters too tired to tackle a major emergency late in their shift.

[oldboot]

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - It's not something most people would want to do but firefighters in Vancouver are pushing for the right to work 24 hours straight. Their union claims the long shift would make them more effective because they wouldn't be as tired.


Right now they work two10 hour days, followed by two 14 hour nights, and they say that really throws off their biological clocks. But the Deputy Chief is worried 24 hours without time off might make firefighters too tired to tackle a major emergency late in their shift.

It looks like you have your work cut out for you.
Your local should contact ours as we have all the medical data supporting the advantages of the 24.

OB

[bestcoast]

It looks like you have your work cut out for you.
Your local should contact ours as we have all the medical data supporting the advantages of the 24.

OB
I think they met with your local's exec's during the convention in the summer to get that info. Right now we have all the research showing the benefits to the 24 hr shift but like you said I think our work is cut out for us. The only thing going for us right now is some of the city councilors are very interested in taking a closer look at it....................BC......................

[GTAFF]

Does going to the 24 mean any loss of jobs due to overstaffing or would it be the same as the old schedule?
Colin


Colin, I wouldnt worry too much about the overstaffing. Lets not forget that it is the membership of your department that will approve whether or not to vote in a negotiated contract package. I would certainly hope that if bringing in the 24 meant layoffs that the membership would chose not to leave some of its own members standing on the sidelines. Wheres the "brotherhood" in that??

[smoke286]

Colin, I wouldnt worry too much about the overstaffing. Lets not forget that it is the membership of your department that will approve whether or not to vote in a negotiated contract package. I would certainly hope that if bringing in the 24 meant layoffs that the membership would chose not to leave some of its own members standing on the sidelines. Wheres the "brotherhood" in that??

Thats not strictly true, if there was no deal you could wind up with an arbitrated decision. Management has gone to arbitration 3 times with our shift system, and lost each time, doesn't stop them from trying it a different way each time.

It is however unlikely that an arbitrator would do something as drastic as imposing a different shift system

[scoop422]

I believe that the fire safety act in Ontario says that full-time firefighters cannot work more than 42 hour work week. Not including OT so a 3 platoon system would be impossible.

[grahamswain]

London fire brigade, UK, sent over a officer to NY to see about the 24 hour duty system, hopefully we will get that. The Brigade have looked at going on to 4-12 hour shifts, 3-8 hour shifts, and another shift system which i dont think even they understand, where the crew turn up for work one day and they all get told which stations they are going to be at for the rest of the duty. They tried it in one of the Northern Brigades and have the station were out of action cause no one knew where they had to be........... If it aint broken, dont try and fix it.

[FitSsikS]

London fire brigade, UK, sent over a officer to NY to see about the 24 hour duty system.....

Oh dear......

....that's a bad start.

[plat]

Does anyone have a link to studies done on the 24 hour shift? Also, does anyone know of an integrated fire/ems service that is operating on the 24 hour shift?

[smoke286]

We have rescues with paramedics that can transport, but not integrated in the way you mean.

Toronto has a very good study done, the easiest way for you to access it would be to get your exec to request it through their provincial organization, or conversely ask your District VP. Unless of course your not IAFF, then I'm not sure what you could do.

[dentedhead]

Does anyone have a link to studies done on the 24 hour shift? Also, does anyone know of an integrated fire/ems service that is operating on the 24 hour shift?

There are no integrated services in Ontario.

I only know of one place that EMS works the 24, its some county north of London.

Dentedhead

[bunkergear]

That County would be Huron. They have been 24hr for a year or so.

[plat]

Thanks for the info

[sunfire67]

I heard rumour that the City of Toronto was looking at the 24 hour shift since it started, there have been more WSIB claims and vehicles being hit by apparatus due to the FF being tired after a long and busy shift.

Any TO FF out there put any truth to this rumour?

[FFWannabe]

I heard rumour that the City of Toronto was looking at the 24 hour shift since it started, there have been more WSIB claims and vehicles being hit by apparatus due to the FF being tired after a long and busy shift.

Any TO FF out there put any truth to this rumour?

I heard the opposite... heard that sick days and comp claims are down. I guess maybe it depends on which side the fence the rumour comes from right? :)

[Firefighter1680]

actually i believe the number is close to 75% of the IAFF departments are on some form of the 24 hours shift. If you are a 4 platoon system it is a Mint deal.. 24 on 24 off 24 on 5 off. You actually get more rest on that 24 off ( you could sleep all day)and still have the evening, than when you work a night sleep (or work at the side job) during the day then back to work...

Studies done by some departmentes show that is better for your body.

[smoke286]

I heard rumour that the City of Toronto was looking at the 24 hour shift since it started, there have been more WSIB claims and vehicles being hit by apparatus due to the FF being tired after a long and busy shift.

Any TO FF out there put any truth to this rumour?

You heard wrong, there is a great deal of evidence that points towards less sick time and less injury on duty when using the 24 hour shift

[oldboot]

The latest word out of Toronto is that our 24 hr shift could be in jeopardy.
Apparently our Chief is getting a lot of questions from council regarding the 24 hr as some of our members who do not like the shift have been writing letters to council members asking then to have the 24 canceled.

This shift has proven to be sick time neutral but apparently that is not good enough for our chief and he wants to see a significant reduction in sick time for him to OK it as our permanent shift.
Statistics indicate that sick time usage is a little lower on the 24 than with the 10/14 however it appears that a little more time is being used on weekends than in the past.

Personally I think the shift will revert back to the 10/14 as management was never on side with it from the get go and they are looking for any excuse to get rid of it.
It maybe the case that they will expect us to give up something in our contract to keep it, if that is the case, from every one I have talked too they say they can poke it!

After working it for over a year I truly believe that it is a healthier shift to work, however it appears that our Chief can’t see the health advantages of it in are in the long term.

OB

[FiremanLGT]

The latest word out of Toronto is that our 24 hr shift could be in jeopardy.
OB

If a decision is made to revert back to the 10/14...how is it done, who decides, and how quickly is the change in shifts implemented. Do FF get to vote on what shift they prefer or does management simply make the decision on the best interests of the FF?

[bestcoast]

The latest word out of Toronto is that our 24 hr shift could be in jeopardy.
Apparently our Chief is getting a lot of questions from council regarding the 24 hr as some of our members who do not like the shift have been writing letters to council members asking then to have the 24 canceled.

This shift has proven to be sick time neutral but apparently that is not good enough for our chief and he wants to see a significant reduction in sick time for him to OK it as our permanent shift.
Statistics indicate that sick time usage is a little lower on the 24 than with the 10/14 however it appears that a little more time is being used on weekends than in the past.

Personally I think the shift will revert back to the 10/14 as management was never on side with it from the get go and they are looking for any excuse to get rid of it.
It maybe the case that they will expect us to give up something in our contract to keep it, if that is the case, from every one I have talked too they say they can poke it!

After working it for over a year I truly believe that it is a healthier shift to work, however it appears that our Chief can’t see the health advantages of it in are in the long term.

OB
Thats too bad OB. I think if you guys lose it in T.O. it certainly won't help our case in Vancouver. And I agree if they try to bring it in at contract time (right now) and want us to give up something more than we already have...:mad: .....then they can go pound sand.........BC..................

[oldboot]

If a decision is made to revert back to the 10/14...how is it done, who decides, and how quickly is the change in shifts implemented. Do FF get to vote on what shift they prefer or does management simply make the decision on the best interests of the FF?
We will revert back to our previous 10/14 shift as per our agreement on Jan 1 if management or the Union decides that they do not like the 24 hr shift.

Very rarely does management make decisions with the best interests of FF in mind!

OB

[scoop422]

It's not like firefighters to wreck things for themselves though is it? :rolleyes: All they have to do is behave for the trial period, hopefully they come around!

[FitSsikS]

The latest word out of Toronto is that our 24 hr shift could be in jeopardy.
Apparently our Chief is getting a lot of questions from council regarding the 24 hr as some of our members who do not like the shift have been writing letters to council members asking then to have the 24 canceled.

This shift has proven to be sick time neutral but apparently that is not good enough for our chief and he wants to see a significant reduction in sick time for him to OK it as our permanent shift.
Statistics indicate that sick time usage is a little lower on the 24 than with the 10/14 however it appears that a little more time is being used on weekends than in the past.

Personally I think the shift will revert back to the 10/14 as management was never on side with it from the get go and they are looking for any excuse to get rid of it.
It maybe the case that they will expect us to give up something in our contract to keep it, if that is the case, from every one I have talked too they say they can poke it!

After working it for over a year I truly believe that it is a healthier shift to work, however it appears that our Chief can’t see the health advantages of it in are in the long term.

OB

Ah, the city's evil plan has fallen into place. My brothers have all gone out and bought houses a good hour away from TO and a Hummer to do the commute in. Now the city frabricates these stories (ffs writing councilors to complain about the shift) in order to cast a shadow (along with "not good enough" improvements in sick time use) on the 24....to cause panic.

Next step? Ok guys whadya want, the 24 hour shift or a dental plan?

Of course we have been assured that the 24 will never be used as a bargaining tool.

[smoke286]

It's not like firefighters to wreck things for themselves though is it? :rolleyes:

Thats pretty funny Scoop

[bestcoast]

Of course we have been assured that the 24 will never be used as a bargaining tool.

I think that is about to happen out here!!!....:mad: .........BC............

[Josh00]

it sucks, and even worse when your just on call 24 hrs a day beacuse you'll start doing thing at home and get a call.

[FitSsikS]

I think that is about to happen out here!!!....:mad: .........BC............

That truely sucks.

I am afraid how far my brothers would go to keep the 24.

That said, they don't seem too willing to stop taking a greater than average amount of sick time during the summer (Chief's observation) in order to save it.

[BCFFFV]

That truely sucks.

I am afraid how far my brothers would go to keep the 24.

That said, they don't seem too willing to stop taking a greater than average amount of sick time during the summer (Chief's observation) in order to save it.


Just wondering how your sick plan works. Our plan has it so that our union pays the first 6 days of each book off. So if I miss 6 days of work in Jan. with the flu the employer pays 0$.....miss another 6 days in Feb. the employer pays 0$.....miss 7 days in March with the Flu the employer pays me 1 days wage from the city's pocket. Our Chief can't use the sick excuse for not going with the 24.....

[bestcoast]

it sucks, and even worse when your just on call 24 hrs a day beacuse you'll start doing thing at home and get a call.

........:hmmmm2: ............BC...............

[BCFFFV]

........:hmmmm2: ............BC...............


Yeah that one confused me too.....

[oldboot]

Just wondering how your sick plan works. Our plan has it so that our union pays the first 6 days of each book off. So if I miss 6 days of work in Jan. with the flu the employer pays 0$.....miss another 6 days in Feb. the employer pays 0$.....miss 7 days in March with the Flu the employer pays me 1 days wage from the city's pocket. Our Chief can't use the sick excuse for not going with the 24.....
We are given 18 days a year and what you don’t use that year you get to keep in your sick bank.
With the 24hr shift one shift equals 2 sick days.

When you retire you can get paid for up to 6 months worth of your unused sick days.

[BCFFFV]

We are given 18 days a year and what you don’t use that year you get to keep in your sick bank.
With the 24hr shift one shift equals 2 sick days.

When you retire you can get paid for up to 6 months worth of your unused sick days.


That sounds pretty nice. We don't get paid for any sick days at retirement. We are given 20 sick days a year but the city only pays for a 7th or more days off in a row. And usually then guys are hassled and put into light duty.

[bestcoast]

That sounds pretty nice. We don't get paid for any sick days at retirement. We are given 20 sick days a year but the city only pays for a 7th or more days off in a row. And usually then guys are hassled and put into light duty.
Great system we got eh BCFFFV!!!...:mad: ...........BC....................

[oldboot]

So let me get this right, your union dues cover most of the sick time pay that your members use?

How much do you guys pay for union dues?

Does your union have any other sources of income other than your dues?

[BCFFFV]

So let me get this right, your union dues cover most of the sick time pay that your members use?

How much do you guys pay for union dues?

Does your union have any other sources of income other than your dues?


In addition to our union dues we also pay about 50$ a month extra that goes to covering our sick days. Individual members get full pay but the union dues and sick plan premium take a big hit to cover it. I'll try and find out the exact numbers. I'm curious what sort of plan other large dept's have.

[oldboot]

In addition to our union dues we also pay about 50$ a month extra that goes to covering our sick days. Individual members get full pay but the union dues and sick plan premium take a big hit to cover it. I'll try and find out the exact numbers. I'm curious what sort of plan other large dept's have.
Is that a common system out west for sick time?

Is it a separate private insurance plan that you pay into or is it self insured by your association?

Sorry for so many questions, it is just something that I have never heard of before, for a large Department to have that type of system


Oldboot

[bestcoast]

Is that a common system out west for sick time?

Is it a separate private insurance plan that you pay into or is it self insured by your association?

Sorry for so many questions, it is just something that I have never heard of before, for a large Department to have that type of system


Oldboot

Check your PM's oldboot. Our system is far from perfect for sure....:mad: ..........BC....................

[oldboot]

Check your PM's oldboot. Our system is far from perfect for sure....:mad: ..........BC....................
Thanks for the information.
It is interesting to see all the differences that we work with.
About the only thing that seems to be common are the flames that we face and the brotherhood that goes with it. :cheers:

Oldboot

[bestcoast]

About the only thing that seems to be common are the flames that we face and the brotherhood that goes with it. :cheers:



Ain't that the truth bro.......:beer: ..........BC................

[MFDBOB]

I've been on the job now going on 21 years, and the only shift i have ever worked is 24/72.
If anybody wants any info, just contact me
mfdbob@gmail.com

[Spiddermann]

What department has a station In Canada that Does 60 calls per day?
1 pump 1 ladder and a rescue? I call B.S. on that.

[smoke286]

We've had more than that at our Central Station on Bonfire Night, of course they put a second pumper on for the peak hours

[purofirefighter]

I have some members of my department that are trying to get us to change to the 24 on 3 off. I don't see any bonuses of changing to this from our current shift schedule. which is 4d, 4off, 4n, 4off, 3d,3n, 4off and then back to the beginning. I have worked this all out and it doesn't help us out at all. I've got the numbers if anybody wants to see them.

[hrecruit]

I love it working one on and having 3 full consecutive days off it's great work 2 week 7-8 times a month no better then that.

[smoke286]

I have worked this all out and it doesn't help us out at all.

Care to elaborate?

[hrecruit]

Care to elaborate?

Me want to know too

Hey smoke Captain Reddy was in town here the weekend went out with him and his misses last night for a bit didn't even know he was out of the FD.

[smoke286]

Mr. Happy himself?

Yeah it came as a suprise to most of us

[hrecruit]

Mr. Happy himself?

Yeah it came as a suprise to most of us

be nice thats my buddy ya heard about lee too that's a real shame man he is a great great person and was great to me on my workterm.

[LFD_FF17]

we are volunteer here but the Ambulance just went to being in house all day, and they work 48 hrs on and 96 hrs off, from what i have heard they love it.

[Workingfire]

we are volunteer here but the Ambulance just went to being in house all day, and they work 48 hrs on and 96 hrs off, from what i have heard they love it.

That's fine...but what type of hours did they do prior to this new shift?

When I worked in the "old" Nova Scotia ambulance system we'd work 5 days straight...9-5 at the office and 5-9 at home on call with the ambulane in the driveway. Then you'd get a few days off...really off (cold beer type "off").

Once that was sorted out we went to 24-48's...and that was the cats a$$. Now I work fire fulltime, and if you were to try to put be back on 24-48's I tell ya to see my Local President, and a few other things too!

48-96's might be a nice change for them...and it's good that they enjoy it, but can they do better?

[LFD_FF17]

They used to do similar to what you did, at the hall during the day and then respond to the hall at night similar to what a volly ff is like.

[atombomb]

48-96 is an interesting shift.

I personally think (hope) that 24-24-24-120 (1 on / 1 off / 1 on / 5 off) is the wave of the future for fire departments and maybe ambulance crews too.

I really think that 24 hour shifts are so much healthier than doing the day-day-night-night. It really, really messes up your sleep schedule.

If not 24 hour shifts, then I think that the fire departments should at least change it day-day-day-day first week, then night-night-night-night the next week. This way you can get sleep schedules under a bit more control. I never understood the day-day-night-night.

[FitSsikS]

48-96 is an interesting shift.
I personally think (hope) that 24-24-24-120 (1 on / 1 off / 1 on / 5 off) is the wave of the future for fire departments and maybe ambulance crews too.


I like the look of that one too.

However my brothers don't like the look of that pattern as it interferes with too many weekends (in a row).

Personally I wrote off weekends years ago. That's when...ewww.....regular people do stuff. :)

[smoke286]

You would have a hard time convincing me to change from my current 24/72 rotation also

[BCFFFV]

48-96 is an interesting shift.

I personally think (hope) that 24-24-24-120 (1 on / 1 off / 1 on / 5 off) is the wave of the future for fire departments and maybe ambulance crews too.

I really think that 24 hour shifts are so much healthier than doing the day-day-night-night. It really, really messes up your sleep schedule.

If not 24 hour shifts, then I think that the fire departments should at least change it day-day-day-day first week, then night-night-night-night the next week. This way you can get sleep schedules under a bit more control. I never understood the day-day-night-night.


Hello????? ARE YOU SERIOUS????? Scheduling to D-D-D-D_ N-N-N-N would make things worse for everybody. I sure wouldn't want to do the job under that schedule.

[atombomb]

Hello????? ARE YOU SERIOUS????? Scheduling to D-D-D-D_ N-N-N-N would make things worse for everybody. I sure wouldn't want to do the job under that schedule.

Hello!!!!!!

Yes I'm serious.

Maybe you can elaborate a bit more as to why you wouldn't want this schedule. I think it would be great. Even D-D-D-D D-D-D-D then N-N-N-N N-N-N-N would be great too, a 28 day rotation. I guess to each their own, but I find the DD-NN screws up my sleep pattern and it has been proven in tests to cause pretty much the most harm to a persons body of any shift pattern around.

[BCFFFV]

Hello!!!!!!

Yes I'm serious.

Maybe you can elaborate a bit more as to why you wouldn't want this schedule. I think it would be great. Even D-D-D-D D-D-D-D then N-N-N-N N-N-N-N would be great too, a 28 day rotation. I guess to each their own, but I find the DD-NN screws up my sleep pattern and it has been proven in tests to cause pretty much the most harm to a persons body of any shift pattern around.


Many people don't sleep well during the day and the N-N-N-N pattern would make you sleep deprived for over 96 hours. Not to mention you would have to fight traffic 4 days some weeks vs. a maximum of 2 now. You would lose your split between days and nights (HUGE LOSS) and would screw up a family life pretty darn quick doing 4 nights in a row.

[atombomb]

Many people don't sleep well during the day and the N-N-N-N pattern would make you sleep deprived for over 96 hours. Not to mention you would have to fight traffic 4 days some weeks vs. a maximum of 2 now. You would lose your split between days and nights (HUGE LOSS) and would screw up a family life pretty darn quick doing 4 nights in a row.

You make some good points. I would rather see the 24hr than either. I never thought about people not being able to sleep during the day (I could sleep during a meteroid attack). The lag time between the D to N is nice too. But then again, the payoff for that is that you lose part of your first day off. You get off work at 0800 and go home and sleep that first day off away and just bum around.

It's a good thing fire departments have their hours set in stone unlike EMS. I could see some places try and get 24/48 then they would only need 3 rotations instead of 4. I think 24/72 would be awesome too.

[smoke286]

I don't know anyone working 24/72 who does not like the shift.

[MFDBOB]

Same here
WE went to arbitration and spent a wack of money to keep our shift.
I can tell you 3 years in advance when i'm working.
It all depends on how busy you are to.
WE are approaching 6000 calls a year.

[FiremanLGT]

Interesting interview with Toronto Fire Chief William Stewart in the latest Toronto Firewatch Magazine.

One question asked was "The membership is aware that the department seems to like the progress made under the 24 hour shift schedule. Do you foresee the Toronto Fire Service going back to the old schedule or are you satisfied with the 24 hour shift?"

His answer was very detailed but here's the meat and potatoes of it.

"From my perspective whether the TFS decides to stay with the 24 hour shift schedule really hinges on the health and wellness of the firefighters working it. To date the statistics are very difficult to draw conclusions from. There is a lot of attention on the shift from Corporate Health and Safety and some members of council as well. Unless we are able to show definitive improvement I do not believe we will stay with the shift.

As Fire Chief I have to be able to show a definate improvement. As it stands now, I think things are no worse in regards to health and wellness, but I do not believe there is a definate improvement. Without that improvement I would not be able to justify staying with the 24 hour shift. Use of sick time is still the greatest indicator of an employee's health and well being. Therefore, if things remain the same and the statistics do not reflect improvements then I believe we will be returning to the former shift schedule. Maybe that is not what your members want to hear, but it is the truth."

[FitSsikS]

Apparently some of my brothers like to take a strategically placed sick day in the summer........this is the trend he takes exception to.

Of course my brothers couldn't be sick. Na....no way.

Well, if we go back (to the old shift) I'm sure we won't be smart enough to stop the flexible change over crap. We will then we'll miss our chance to really stick it to The Man twice a day (OT).

[smoke286]

Unless we are able to show definitive improvement I do not believe we will stay with the shift.


Aaaaah, therein lies the threat

[MontrealFire]

Management in our department is also dead set against the 24h hour shift. It would appear that we like to be last with everything (first responder etc.). Despite the fact that they like to compare us a lot with Phoenix -- oh, but only in regards to prevention, apparently not ladder staffing or shifts :).

With Kingston pulling the plug last year, and Toronto not looking very good right now -- what is the current status of departments working 24h shifts in Canada?

Halifax
Moncton
Niagra Falls
Windsor
Mississauga (trial)

Thats off the top of my head, who am I missing?

[FitSsikS]

Currently in Toronto the threat of the removal of the 24 hour shift is being used to try and deter my brothers and I from using our sick time.
Management has determined that certain days are being taken off in the summer months at what they have deemed to be an unacceptable rate.

[ABFF37]

Currently in Toronto the threat of the removal of the 24 hour shift is being used to try and deter my brothers and I from using our sick time.
Management has determined that certain days are being taken off in the summer months at what they have deemed to be an unacceptable rate.
People don't get sick in the summer do they??? :rolleyes:

AB:D

[FitSsikS]

People don't get sick in the summer do they??? :rolleyes:

AB:D

I have been doing my best to shift the statistics a bit.....

Feb/March has been an unlucky few months for me.

[BillyBlazes]

I have been doing my best to change the statistics as well, I have not had a sick day since we started the 24 hr. shift.
I would hate to see us loose it. I do not want to go back to that 4 day shift!!!!!!!!

[hrecruit]

Well they want to change our hours from 8a.m to 8am. they want us working 7am to 7am booooooooo.

[Rescue78]

Our new contract has been ratified by all parties and approved by council yesterday. Kingston will be back on the 24 hour shift as of Jan 2008.:D

[hrecruit]

[QUOTE=MontrealFire]Management in our department is also dead set against the 24h hour shift. It would appear that we like to be last with everything (first responder etc.). Despite the fact that they like to compare us a lot with Phoenix -- oh, but only in regards to prevention, apparently not ladder staffing or shifts :).

With Kingston pulling the plug last year, and Toronto not looking very good right now -- what is the current status of departments working 24h shifts in Canada?

Halifax

(Even thought they want us to start at 7 and end at 7 the next day don't think they will ever want the 24 gone too easy to manage)

[Leafs Fan]

Kingston just ratified a freely negotiatied agreement that includes the 24 hour shift and 3,6,9 recognition. The 24 is still happening out there. Belleville is currently at Arbitration and the 24 hour shift is part of the package. The City had 2 binders of crap for their rebuttal regarding the 24 brief our side submitted, but the Kingston deal is good for us.

[Rescue78]

Leafs Fan

Good luck with your arbitration. I hope your arbitrator will be good to you.

Our boys on the negotiation committee worked hard and got us a contract that we are quite happy with. We can never get those guys enough credit.

I hope you get what you are after.

[plat]

I am one of the members that have been asked to research the 24 hour shift for our department. I have a couple of questions regarding the shift.

Does anyone have any information on call volume per member for departments using the twenty four hour shift?

Any information on the average amount of down time (not on calls)?

Does anyone know of any integrated fire/ems departments using the 24 hour shift?

Thanks

[Rescue78]

Plat

I don't mean to sound ignorant but as far as call volume and down time, there is no magic here. The 24 is nothing more then a day shift and a night shift back to back, so the math is pretty easy. Also that way, you are using your numbers, not anyone elses. Numbers vary enough from station to station, let alone city to city.

One thing I can tell you is, do your homework as far as wich version of 24 hour shift you want to bring forward. There are quite a few versions and not all are good. Since IAFF and TPFFA got DR. Glazner to conduct a study as far as wich shift is better for the profession, it seems to make sense to go with her recommendations.

I can't help you with integrated services.

[Ronald_Bartel]

Interesting thread. See it was started by someone on my job. Final decision, it ain't happening. Puxatony Ray(our chief) has officially squashed it. Too much "work" I quess, and the members wanted it so thats good enough reason for him. 2nd longest serving Fire Chief in the history of our department and nobody even know's who he is. And the D/C's behind him. Yikes. First time i've ever hoped for a F/C to be hired from outside our own job.:(

[smoke286]

It is typical of manamgement to be against something simply because the membership likes it.

[9lives]

Interesting thread. See it was started by someone on my job. Final decision, it ain't happening. Puxatony Ray(our chief) has officially squashed it. Too much "work" I quess, and the members wanted it so thats good enough reason for him. 2nd longest serving Fire Chief in the history of our department and nobody even know's who he is. And the D/C's behind him. Yikes. First time i've ever hoped for a F/C to be hired from outside our own job.:(

RON, CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR BRO. WHEN I STARTED IN BURNABY IN 82, THERE WAS NO "FIRE CHIEF". RATHER A DIRECTOR OF FIRE SERVICES, A SUIT HIRED BY THE CITY TO RUN THE DEPT. NEEDLESS TO SAY HE WAS SHUNNED FROM DAY ONE, IN FACT IT WAS FROWNED UPON TO SAY GOOD MORNING TO HIM, NOT BECAUSE HE WAS AN A$$HOLE, BUT AN OUTSIDER WITH NO FIREFIGHTING EXPERIENCE OR REPOIRE(sp) WITH THE MEN. AFTER HIS 3 YR. CONTRACT EXPIRED, A NEW CHAIN OF COMMAND WAS EST. AND EVERY FIRE CHIEF APPOINTED SINCE THEN HAS RISEN THROUGH THE RANKS, AND MOST SERVED ON THE UNION EXECUTIVE. REGARDING 24HR. SHIFTS, OUR MEMBERSHIP IS EQUALLY DIVIDED. MY PREFERENCE IS TO STAY WITH THE TRADITIONAL SCHEDULE OF 2/10-2/14., AND ALLOW 24HR. SHIFTS BY ARRANGEMENT.

[scoop422]

I don't think Ron means a non-firefighter but perhaps considering officers from other departments.

[Ronald_Bartel]

The best thing would be to have a Chief be hired through the ranks as we do.
Take a look at our options and tell me that.....(We've always hired from with in but this ain't a good time). Maybe one guy on our job that ain't a D/C I can think of that would be good but other than that....Scoop is right, no suit but a guy from another FD with FIRE experience ain't out of the question In my opinion.

[Ronald_Bartel]

I agree with much of what you are saying. It's supposed to work well but too many egos get in the way. Good grief if one of them ever took some advice or just listened instead of the old "are you telling me how to run the job?" attitude I'd never believe it.

Here here, don't get me wrong the D/C's are decent guys but the bath water upstairs is oh so yummy. They have lost touch with the 'Guys" and you are so right, any advice is viewed as criticism and your but is transfered to 19 hall. Which in the words of an unamed D/C "Is not a punishment hall"...:rolleyes:

[Dickie]

What department has a station In Canada that Does 60 calls per day?
1 pump 1 ladder and a rescue? I call B.S. on that.

Toronto Fire
Station 325 - Regent Park
R325 - 4,400/year
P325 - 3,400
A325 - 2,400

That is the only Station that comes close to your description. However...

Toronto Fire
Station 332 - Adelaide
P332 - 4,700
HR332 - 4,000
HZ332 - 800
C33 - 5,500

This Station is a closer representation of the busiest station.

[Arson571]

Some agencies in my are have gone or are considering the 48 on / 96 off shift. I have heard that municipalities that don't pay their firefighters well enough to live in or near the area have gone to this schedule. It makes it so firefighters can live over an hour traveling distance because it allows one trip each direction for two days worth of work.

There are some guys walking around here with research they claim supports it for health reasons too. I haven't read any of it. What have you all heard about this schedule?

[grey]

> Some agencies in my are have gone or are considering the
> 48 on / 96 off shift.

(I'm new to this site and thread, and I didn't sift through all the replies yet. Pardon me if this has been brought up before)

Does their paycheck reflect all that extra time they put in? Even if it did, that's not the point.

48 hr + 96 hr = 6 days

In six days, everyone else works an average of 3 x 12 hr shifts = 36 hrs.

48 hrs - 36 hrs = 12 hrs...

It might just be me, but I'd rather be fishing for those extra 12 hrs every week... no offense to the guys at work.

[Arson571]

Yes, similar to the 24 hr shift scheme, there are extra hours worked in the pay-period that are compensated as overtime.

[BillyBlazes]

We work a 24 hour shift with a rotation that works out to a 42 hr week. Our paycheque refects that.

[MontrealFire]

We still do the 10/14 rotation that also works out to 42h a week on average. We're paid the equivilant of 40h regular and 2h overtime per week.

[ve2vfd]

With the way the negociations for the collective agreement are going, I'm pretty sure we can forget about the 24 hrs schedule... :(

Pat

[MontrealFire]

It's not over until the fat lady signs.

In arbitration, we won't get 0% and we'll have a fighting chance at a work schedule that doesn't cost the City anything extra. The 24h shift has been won in the US previously in arbitration.

Besides, after driving the steamroller through our working conditions the arbitrator will feel guilty enough he'll at least throw us a bone! lol.

Either way, the City, and Uncle Serge will pay for anything he wins in arbitration with 'superb' work relations for the next 20 years. But I digress, this was a 24h thread -- not a Montreal thread :).

[nocomment]

With a new fire friendly Mayor and Council and our FC on the way out maybe we can bring this topic up again. The Mayor is a go green guy so he might listen to the presentation more than previous Mayor's and Council's.

[Doug246]

In Brampton we voted to go to the shift that Toronto and Mississauga is on but our bargaining committee came back with the 24/72 one. No word on why yet but we vote on the contract on Monday. March 9 2009. Should be a very interesting meeting! (let the whining begin!)

[Profire]

In Brampton we voted to go to the shift that Toronto and Mississauga is on but our bargaining committee came back with the 24/72 one. No word on why yet but we vote on the contract on Monday. March 9 2009. Should be a very interesting meeting! (let the whining begin!)

24/72 is a fabulous shift schedule, trust me, our department has been using it for nearly 40 years, plus its a lot easier to remember : work/off/off/off/work etc. etc.

[Doug246]

Hey Profire..what department are you with?

[itsnotahobby]

Hey Profire..what department are you with?

It's in Canada somewhere between the East and West Coast.

[Profire]

Wow thats amazing, you nailed it!

[itsnotahobby]

What can I say, it's a gift!

[Rescue78]

In arbitration, we won't get 0% and we'll have a fighting chance at a work schedule that doesn't cost the City anything extra.


I know this is an old post, but I also know that Montreal is still fighting for a contract.

Somebody can correct me on this, but I am not sure an arbitrator would rule on hours of work (as long as there are no obvious violations). Especially with the amounts of issues MTL is bringing to the table. That is likely an item that the arbitrator will throw back and say you can settle this one by yourself. Mind you, with the history of bad faith negotiation from management in MTL, arbitrator ruling seems to be the only way to get anything done.

For the more union knowledgeable people in the crowd, is there any Ontario/Quebec precedent on that one????

[itsnotahobby]

I know this is an old post, but I also know that Montreal is still fighting for a contract.

Somebody can correct me on this, but I am not sure an arbitrator would rule on hours of work (as long as there are no obvious violations). Especially with the amounts of issues MTL is bringing to the table. That is likely an item that the arbitrator will throw back and say you can settle this one by yourself. Mind you, with the history of bad faith negotiation from management in MTL, arbitrator ruling seems to be the only way to get anything done.

For the more union knowledgeable people in the crowd, is there any Ontario/Quebec precedent on that one????

I can't speak to Quebec as that is a whole different animal all together. They have some of the most archaic anti-labour laws in Canada.

In Ontario under the FPPA the hours of work are laid out in the format of 42 hour work week, and a 4 platoon system. How you do that is up to the association and management to either agree upon or have arbitrated.

An arbitrator can either rule on anything that has either been discussed in negotiations or the contract as a whole(its one or the other but I can't remember which exactly.) It probably doesn't matter which as during negotiations usually each contract section is discussed in one form or another. This would then open it up to the arbitrator to look at if I'm not mistaken.

Look at the case of Richmond Hills most recent arbitration decision as an example of what the arbitrator can do and the powers he has. The arbitrator was looking to compensate the city for something that he had awarded the association(kind of like throwing them a bone) could have been 3,6,9 but don't quote me. So he looked at their work schedule 5on 5off, and changed it to 4on, 4off. This wasn't even an item that the city or the association had taken before the arbitration board. Subsequently following the arbitrators decision being handed down the association and management sat down and worked out a letter of understanding to add to the contract to go to the 24 hr. shift.

[Marlmucker]

I can't speak to Quebec as that is a whole different animal all together. They have some of the most archaic anti-labour laws in Canada.

In Ontario under the FPPA the hours of work are laid out in the format of 42 hour work week, and a 4 platoon system. How you do that is up to the association and management to either agree upon or have arbitrated.

An arbitrator can either rule on anything that has either been discussed in negotiations or the contract as a whole(its one or the other but I can't remember which exactly.) It probably doesn't matter which as during negotiations usually each contract section is discussed in one form or another. This would then open it up to the arbitrator to look at if I'm not mistaken.

Look at the case of Richmond Hills most recent arbitration decision as an example of what the arbitrator can do and the powers he has. The arbitrator was looking to compensate the city for something that he had awarded the association(kind of like throwing them a bone) could have been 3,6,9 but don't quote me. So he looked at their work schedule 5on 5off, and changed it to 4on, 4off. This wasn't even an item that the city or the association had taken before the arbitration board. Subsequently following the arbitrators decision being handed down the association and management sat down and worked out a letter of understanding to add to the contract to go to the 24 hr. shift.
It's my understanding the FPPA gives you (management and the b.u.) the flexibility to create any schedule format as long as it doesn't exceed an average of 48hrs/wk. Could be mistaken though.

[itsnotahobby]

It's my understanding the FPPA gives you (management and the b.u.) the flexibility to create any schedule format as long as it doesn't exceed an average of 48hrs/wk. Could be mistaken though.


You're right I was mixing it up with something else. Here is the section of the FPPA that deals with it:

Strike and lock outs

42. (1) No firefighter shall strike and no employer of firefighters shall lock them out.

Definitions

(2) In this section,

“lock-out” and “strike” have the same meaning as in the Labour Relations Act, 1995. 1997, c. 4, s. 42.

Hours of work

43. (1) In every municipality having a population of not less than 10,000, the firefighters assigned to firefighting duties shall work according to,

(a) the two-platoon system where the firefighters are divided into two platoons, the hours of work of which shall be,

(i) for each platoon 24 consecutive hours on duty followed immediately by 24 consecutive hours off duty, or

(ii) for one platoon in day-time ten consecutive hours on duty followed immediately by 14 consecutive hours off duty and for the other platoon in night-time 14 consecutive hours on duty followed immediately by 10 consecutive hours off duty,

and the platoons shall alternate at least every two weeks from night work to day work and vice versa;

(b) the three-platoon system where the firefighters are divided into three platoons, the hours of work of which shall be eight consecutive hours on duty followed immediately by 16 consecutive hours off duty, and the platoons shall rotate in their periods of duty and time off as may be arranged for the purpose of changing shifts at least every two weeks; or

(c) any other system of platoons or hours of work under which the maximum hours of work or hours on duty on average in any work week are not more than 48 hours.

Other personnel

(2) Firefighters assigned to duties other than fire-fighting duties shall work such hours as are determined, but in no case shall such hours of work exceed the average work week of the other full-time firefighters.

Maximum hours

(3) No firefighters shall be required to be on duty on average in any work week more than 48 hours.

Weekly day off duty

(4) Every firefighter shall be off duty for one full day of 24 hours in every calendar week, but where a two-platoon system or a three-platoon system is in operation, the 24 hours release at the change of platoons shall not be regarded as a day off duty for the purposes of this section.

Time off duty

(5) Nothing in this Part prohibits any municipality from granting the firefighters more than one day off duty in every calendar week.

Off duty

(6) The hours off duty of firefighters shall be free from fire department duties.

[Rescue78]

Well there ya go. I knew I could count on you guys. Thanks.

[irsqyu]

Wow thats amazing, you nailed it!

I'll bet you work for a career department, don't know why, maybe just a feeling. Something to do with your name, your avatar and your signature line:D

[Profire]

I know this is an old post, but I also know that Montreal is still fighting for a contract.

Somebody can correct me on this, but I am not sure an arbitrator would rule on hours of work (as long as there are no obvious violations). Especially with the amounts of issues MTL is bringing to the table. That is likely an item that the arbitrator will throw back and say you can settle this one by yourself. Mind you, with the history of bad faith negotiation from management in MTL, arbitrator ruling seems to be the only way to get anything done.

For the more union knowledgeable people in the crowd, is there any Ontario/Quebec precedent on that one????

Our employer took our shift system to arbitration some years back, the arbitrator refused to rule on it. The only way I can see he would was if one of the parties made a strong case it was a health and safety issue

[Doug246]

In Brampton we voted to go to the shift that Toronto and Mississauga is on but our bargaining committee came back with the 24/72 one. No word on why yet but we vote on the contract on Monday. March 9 2009. Should be a very interesting meeting! (let the whining begin!)

Well we voted on it and turned it down. It was a good contract but everyone seemed to want to work the 24hr shift that Toronto works and wouldn't accept the 24/72.

[itsnotahobby]

Well we voted on it and turned it down. It was a good contract but everyone seemed to want to work the 24hr shift that Toronto works and wouldn't accept the 24/72.

That's good, you shouldn't accept something that you aren't happy with.

[oldboot]

Well we voted on it and turned it down. It was a good contract but everyone seemed to want to work the 24hr shift that Toronto works and wouldn't accept the 24/72.

That should send a strong message to your bargaining committee!

[RugbyCanada]

That should send a strong message to your bargaining committee!

Who asked for that specific type of shift--the Union or the City?

RC

[itsnotahobby]

Who asked for that specific type of shift--the Union or the City?

RC

If I'm not mistaken this came from the city.

[Doug246]

Who asked for that specific type of shift--the Union or the City?

RC

It was the city's idea to work that shift. Its hard to argue it when we go in promoting the 24hr as a safer and healthier shift and its proven that the 24/72 is the better one.

[FiremanLGT]

Don't totally understand the city's rationelle. If they are really fine with the 24 shift then why do they care what the schedule is....they aren't the one's working it. Seems to me as if they are trying to save face. Seems they want to "appear" to be the good guys by going on record of offering the guys to have the 24 shift....knowing full well there's a big catch and the guys won't go for it.

[RugbyCanada]

Don't totally understand the city's rationelle. If they are really fine with the 24 shift then why do they care what the schedule is....they aren't the one's working it. Seems to me as if they are trying to save face. Seems they want to "appear" to be the good guys by going on record of offering the guys to have the 24 shift....knowing full well there's a big catch and the guys won't go for it.

Thats what I was thinking. Was suggested the same thing by a few B-town guys. Kind of "bad faith", without appearance of bad faith.

Oh well. Got voted down 60 to 40--maybe this will help in the next round, if both parties choose to revisit it.

Good luck guys,

RC

[Profire]

Don't totally understand the city's rationelle. If they are really fine with the 24 shift then why do they care what the schedule is....they aren't the one's working it. Seems to me as if they are trying to save face. Seems they want to "appear" to be the good guys by going on record of offering the guys to have the 24 shift....knowing full well there's a big catch and the guys won't go for it.

FiremanLGT Your own Department has voiced some concerns regarding the Toronto shift regarding an illeged spike in sick leave during a certain period of the shift rotation, I can see how another Department might feel that a different 24 hour shift schedule might be preferable.

[FiremanLGT]

FiremanLGT Your own Department has voiced some concerns regarding the Toronto shift regarding an illeged spike in sick leave during a certain period of the shift rotation, I can see how another Department might feel that a different 24 hour shift schedule might be preferable.

There's guys on every department and every sort of shift that will take advantage of sick days. Why people would abuse sick time on our 24 shift is beyond me. With our schedule we have a long stretch of 7 days off as well as 5 days off in a row evey month. The downside I imagine some people see with the 24/72 is you you don't get that luxury of a long stretch off every month.....unless you call in sick and it becomes a 24/week off....or wait for vacation time like regular folk do.

Me, I could do either shift quite happily. I like our shift but sometimes find the 7 day and 5 day stretches can be long and I'm itching to get back to work. Guess that's cause I'm still relatively new to the job....my opinion could very well change years down the road ;)

[Profire]

I too, would not have a problem working either shift, nor personally could I see turning down what was (apparently) a good deal over either shift

[FitSsikS]

FiremanLGT Your own Department has voiced some concerns regarding the Toronto shift regarding an illeged spike in sick leave during a certain period of the shift rotation, I can see how another Department might feel that a different 24 hour shift schedule might be preferable.

Certainly by going to a 24 with a repeated 'form' you would elimate those alleged patterns. (Booking off just before a long period where you are off shift.)

That would us bring back to the old days, "Hey, he booked off Friday*!"

*Or Saturday

*Or Sunday if he's hung over.

;)

[Profire]

Far be it from me to imply that any such statistical reference was anything more than an aberration. We all no none of our brethren would consider for a single moment abusing sick leave.

[Doug246]

Thats what I was thinking. Was suggested the same thing by a few B-town guys. Kind of "bad faith", without appearance of bad faith.

Oh well. Got voted down 60 to 40--maybe this will help in the next round, if both parties choose to revisit it.

Good luck guys,

RC

Not sure were you got your numbers from but it wasn't even that close.

I think the city was trying to avoid the super Tuesday as Toronto calls it. Thats why they went for the 24/72.

[nocomment]

At least you guy's got to vote on a 24 hr shift. We didn't even make it that far :(

[itsnotahobby]

Not sure were you got your numbers from but it wasn't even that close.

I think the city was trying to avoid the super Tuesday as Toronto calls it. Thats why they went for the 24/72.

Personally I like the Woodstock; 24on 24off 24on 5 off. No fn' around. take two 24's off you get a 13 day stretch.

[RugbyCanada]

Not sure were you got your numbers from but it wasn't even that close.

I think the city was trying to avoid the super Tuesday as Toronto calls it. Thats why they went for the 24/72.

Brother in law is on Brampton. Got the numbers from him.

Cheers,

RC