To Fire School or Not To Fire School

[mcscooter]

I am confused and looking for some help!! I am working towards a career within firefighting and I have just recently applied to Fire Etc. for there Summer program. I thought this is the route I should take (gain some experience, etc.).

After speaking with a family friend who used to be the Mississauga Fire Chief, I have been told "don't waste my time or money". He doesn't have a problem with Fire Etc. specifically but with coarses in general.

I thought school was the way to go but now I'm questioning my choice, does anyone have any input?

[DoubleHelix]

Age has a big thing to do with it. I'm 20 or in a month I will be so school is a must for me and not only for getting hired. Going to school was a treat because even the most boring stuff is still awesome if you have the passion for it. A big plus to a pre-service program is you get a work placement at a fire hall with most NFPA grads don't. I'm not sure with Fire Etc. but I know with like Texas A&M and stuff you don't.

[FireEMTGuy]

As years go by and more and more applicants apply for a limited position within a service such as Edmonton or Calgary, today and in the future the candidate needs to stand out among the rest, 10-01's being just one way.

However in the recent Edmonton hiring part of the process was a 10-01 knowledge threshold test in which candidates were required to get a VERY HIGH mark in order to pass (80-90%, not sure which). Now without 10-01's you are left with minimal knowledge and basically NO chance of passing the test.

With that said, more and more departments, mainly smaller departments, but in the next 1-2 years the larger departments will make NFPA 10-01 certification a REQUIREMENT to apply. I know that Calgary and Edmonton both are, and I believe many larger departments in the lower mainland of BC currently require this certification.

Fire etc's NFPA 10-01 course is an excellent course and with the right background, desire, and determination I am confidant you will be a good competitor.

However, this all may be variable in regards to where exactly you are from...?

Originally posted by DoubleHelix
A big plus to a pre-service program is you get a work placement at a fire hall with most NFPA grads don't. I'm not sure with Fire Etc. but I know with like Texas A&M and stuff you don't.

Fire etc's NPFA 10-01 or Firefighter Training Program does not offer job placement or a "fire practium." However their EST (Emergency Services Technician) program does offer a fire/EMT practium. However, this practium is generally geared towards the EMT aspect of their course as it is a requirement for EMT registration.

On a side note could you define and give examples of "Pre-service program?"

[DoubleHelix]

Meaning a Ontario college that offers the Pre-Service Program developed by the Ontario Fire Marshall. Example Being Humber College, Lambton, Seneca

[FireEMTGuy]

Like you stated in another recient post. Placement for a "practium" gives a student some valuable experience when it comes to the real workings of a municipal fire department. Everything from station duties to working fires.

The problem is Fire Etc. has gotten to the point where they will take anyone, if you have the cash, your in. I can see their point of view from a business sense, but when there are guys in the class who have no clue, have done no research or have any experience (even just a ride along would suffice), get into the course because they have the $$$, I think it's time for some quality control. You can't just "make" someone a firefighter that easy.

Also on the same note and my orignal point is that with 10 classes of 18-24 guys each placement of practiums on departments becomes hard and factoring in the guys with no experience, some would just make a bad name for the school.

The EST program at least does interviews, testing, etc prior to accepting students and therefore have some quality control and know who and what they are sending to practium host departments.

[DoubleHelix]

I know at the hall I was placed at for my work placement they had like 5 or 6 other students before me in the previous years and some of the stories they told me were unbelieveable. I'm glad I made a good name for my school but through one interview its hard to see through a person and tell how they will do out on the job.

I know im just lucky I got accepted to Humber a year ago because I knew absolutely nothing. I had my first aid and that was it. I had no idea how a station ran or anything and I certainly had no idea how hard it is to get on. But I think its because they saw I was a decent 18 year old kid who was raised right and could be made into a firefighter.

In some other post a member mentioned some newfoundland school which sounded pretty cool. Its like 3 months or something and then you get a placement throughout Canada or the States. I think it was in hiring or something like that. Give it a check for sure.

[knatty_soldier]

The EST program at least does interviews, testing, etc prior to accepting students and therefore have some quality control and know who and what they are sending to practium host departments. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is a great point about making better decisions on people who deserve the training. I fully agree with this policy, not only within firefighting but with myriad jobs in many fields. My only question is, then, what is an EST program?

Thanks for your help guys!

Ben

[18atone]

As has been noted most major departments are requiring NFPA 10.01 as a min. sometime in the near future. So soon the school thing will be a must and in fact is already here for many departments. Complaining about cost for things such as school or application charges will do no good, as most of the managers for the FD hiring divisions have already made these factors well know to the bean counters. These costs are a fact of life brought on by today's budget struggles.

I have stated before that we as a service need to demand more from the schools. They seem slow to listen to the end users (Fire Departments) so you students must push for better training for your money. The school can promise that you will be hired all they want!!! Schools don't do the hiring for any other industry what makes them think they can for the fire service?

Twice in the last two weeks and indeed so often I lost count, I had candidates explain that they were top performers in their fire school. Yet they were unable to pass a written test for our service. A test that has a preset score which is very inclusive and in fact needs no experience or fire school higher education to pass. What are we to think of a school which sends us grads who have 95% marks but can not pass a real world test?

:confused:


The real point here is simply for you as indivduals to take charge of your future and don't just blindly believe all that you are being sold. The FD hiring manager won't or he will be out of a job very quickly.

[FireEMTGuy]

EST is a program offered at fire etc. which stands for Emergency Services Technician. The program (up until this year) offered both NFPA 1001 training as well as your EMT(PCP) medical training. They have now diversified into offering a "fire" geared EST program which would offer more extensive fire courses and less medical courses (EMR instead of EMT) while at the same time offering the old style of course which covers your 1001's and EMT.

18atone, Calgary, if I am correct, is one of the "most departments" you speak of. If you are privy to such information, do you have a estimated date they will make this a prereq? I have seen/heard of more questions being asked about it within the CFD so I am assuming it will be in the near future.


Twice in the last two weeks and indeed so often I lost count, I had candidates explain that they were top performers in their fire school. Yet they were unable to pass a written test for our service. A test that has a preset score which is very inclusive and in fact needs no experience or fire school higher education to pass. What are we to think of a school which sends us grads who have 95% marks but can not pass a real world test?

I found that in my 1001 class there were the "book smarts," those who got the "98's" you speak of, but those who performed rather poorly in the field in regards to teamwork and even skillsets and knowledge wise. The guys who maybe didn't get as high of marks, but knew their stuff regardless, performed much better as a team and in the field knowledge and skill wise.

[18atone]

Sorry that the CFD transition date is not well known yet. Believe me we have been trying to get candidates and internal people the word for sometime now, about 14 months. At first I suppose the time just seemed to far away for people to really be concerned about. Well that isn't the case now. As of January 1 2006 the CFD will use NFPA 1001 as a minimum requirement to apply. Don't waste time yelling at the recruitment teams, this is out of their control and as displayed in the Calgary Hearld the past two weeks the public does not feel sorry that FF's need to spend money up-front to gain the job. Anything and everything was thrown into the fight against setting such a standard but the politicians won. I am looking to find other industries which will offer an increased chance of employment to graduates of fire colleges because of their certification, but don't have much to suggest yet. Remember folks ...........develop and keep lots of options open for your future, then you will find success!

[bestcoast]

FireEmtGuy, you mention the "book smart" guys not having the skillsets and knowledge and I couldn't agree more. FD's used to hire guys with trade's and a little life experience (If you were a good hockey player that helped too) and now you are getting guys that still live at home with their parent's and the FD is their first job!!! Not saying they all make poor FF's but It seem's they are the only one's that can take a few month's with no pay and get their NFPA 1001 I believe it is. Your average family guy with ton's of knowledge and skill's can't do that with a family and mortgage to worry about and it is too bad because a lot of great candidates can't even apply now........my 2 cent's...any comment's fella's.......BC.....

[scoop422]

Well said bestcoast. You're not trying to start something though are you?;)

[bestcoast]

Originally posted by scoop422
Well said bestcoast. You're not trying to start something though are you?;)

Scoop, I would never stir the pot like that....;) :rolleyes: ...BC.....

[DoubleHelix]

I think living at home with your parents has nothing to do with anything. Yes I live at home but why wouldn't I? I live in a nice house and get warm meals and a nice family. If I was on my own id living in some dump and it wouldn't give me anymore life experience. If anything it would give me less money to further my fire education and apply to all these recruitments. There's places for lots of different kind of people in the fire service and its the person that they hire not the trade or fire school they have.

[18atone]

BC.

Yes I believe that those are the scenarios for this period in time. The thing is that as the education criteria becomes more common the candidates are already changing their paradigms toward pre-service education. Not long in the future this issue would seem silly to new recruits. However, as the service looses the grey wave in the near future we will be begging for recruits and the public service will never pay what the trades and oil patch do. Putting more barriers in front of young candidates is not going to help attract them. The bean counters never understand when the discussion goes to hiring well rounded recruits and not book smart people. Oh well………. battle on!

[bestcoast]

DH, your making my point for me over again. All I was saying is it is people like yourself, that are the only one's that seem to be able to afford these courses that are the requirements nowadays. I'm sure you will make an excellent Firefighter once you are hired, and yes there is room for all kind's of people on the job. And their are some really good quality guys coming out of these college's. But my orginal point was, that with the way recruit's are hired now, people that would otherwise make excellent FF's can't even apply because they can't afford it. It is nobody's fault that this is the way thing's are, it is what it is. But when i gotta show rookies how to start a freaking chainsaw the red flag goes up. Like 18atone said, the bean counters will never understand.......

P.S. DH, this wasn't intended to be a shot at you personally, just the system.......

[pitter19]

Bestcoast said it best about experience.
Half the time in my truck we have experience in, Electrical, Plumbing, Carpentry ETC. We have received many new guys in our hall, and the ones that really excelled were not from Fire College. Many guys in our hall beleive that *MOST* (not all) the fire college students have no real qualities over non college students. We have two recruits from fire college in our hall that did not know how to hook up a hydrant. If this class is a requirement, and established men, older than 20 with a family, can't afford to go. The fire service is in DEEP TROUBLE.

Another Firefighter on this thread also said, push your teachers. He is so right, that instructor can tell you he has shown you alot, but take the time to read the threads on Firehall.com,you will realize that the training barely scrapes the surface of what you need to know. Pick their brain's make them awnser about RIT, extrication struts, New car construction, ETC. In detail.

A fire college course done properly, would gain respect like wildfire, not to mention receive endorsment from all aspects of the service. I write this email to all you students. This is your money. Please spend some time on as many training sites as you can and honestly look at whats out there and weigh this against what you are receiving. Many of the guys I know that took the course feel they should have received more.

Thanks again
Pitter

[BCFFFV]

Honestly in my opinion it makes very little difference if you attend fire academy or not for passing an NFPA test. At least not 10,000$ difference. You can order the IFSTA essentials manual and study guide and do just as well on the exams on your own time if you are motivated. However, in B.C. it's pretty much mandatory that you have NFPA 1001 - Level 1 and 2 for every dept. in addition to a list of other qualifications. I also noticed that it will soon be mandatory in Calgary as well. I went to a fire academy that was half full of GREAT GUYS.....(Most of whom have been hired) And half full of immature punks shooting spitballs in class!!!!! (Who haven't been hired) Imagine having to spend 10,000$ out of your pocket and to get in with a bunch of guys whose parents paid their way without doing any research on what is really needed. Anyways.....I still think the guys with good life experience, maturity get hired much faster out here. And the guys with the trades experience seem to get more opportunities for interviews.

[ssifire]

I'm with BCFFFV

I went to a fire academy that was half full of GREAT GUYS.....(Most of whom have been hired) And half full of immature punks shooting spitballs in class!!!!! (Who haven't been hired)

I too went through the JIBC fire academy and I have a hard time beleiving that my piece of paper is worth $10,000. The effort that some of the other students, guys and girls, put in was awful. For me, I was one of those guys that BC stated could afford to go.

Your average family guy with knowledge and skill's can't do that with a family and mortgage to worry about and it is too bad

Well I could affort to, but had to sell my business, rent a second place and risk coming out of the academy with no business, no job, morgage payments, stress out the @$$, but a nice shiny piece of paper with NFPA 1001 I & II. While my hard work paid off, after two years, over half my class is still unemployed.

I guess my biggest complaint with the system is that, with so many people appling for the world GREATEST job, they have to make certain hoops to jump through to weed people out. I'm just not sure that the right hoops are in place, but at the end of the day, I don't think you can ever go too wrong but added training, or schooling, to the resume.

Good luck with the career, whichever way you get there!

[BCFFFV]

Actually.....I hear the J.I.B.C. is very strict. I was going to go there but at the last moment opted for a different school. I'm not going to say anything bad about a specific school on a message board but I do wish all the schools would have stricter screening. At least the J.I. interviews students etc. I hear it is a great school. As for students not getting hired I think that people need to be very honest at the beginning stages of pursuing a fire service career. I mean, I would run into people in my fire academy class who had no clue they needed a year of post secondary education in addition to the NFPA courses in B.C. Their reply was usually like "oh s%$#@" People must do their homework first before blowing 10,000$ Check with the local depts. etc for minimum and preferred qualifications. I don't want to sound like I am anything great. I feel very fortunate to get hired. But I listened to feedback from people who knew me and I did my homework. The academies are pumping recruits out faster and faster it seems as they need to make money like any other business.

[ssifire]

I'm not going to say anything bad about a specific school on a message board

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the JI, or any other academy. I just felt 10,000 was a little steep. I feel I could have passed any of the test I wrote with my previous volunteer experience. While it obviously added to my knowledge going to the JI, I don't think it added 10 G worth.

I would run into people in my fire academy class who had no clue they needed a year of post secondary education in addition to the NFPA courses in B.C

This is one of those hoops that I don't think needs to be in place. I don't think just because you took a year of university you make a better firefighter than someone who hasn't. I started a business right out of highschool, I'm I sure I learnt just as much as any 1st year student.

I do agree with you on the research aspect though. Just looking through Vancouvers results, and I can't beleive who many people didn't add this, or didn't have that. There's no reason to hand in an incomplete resume.

Take a little time, and do some research.

[BCFFFV]

Actually, I wasn't saying you were knocking the J.I. more that I would have ripped apart the school I went to.....but won't.