Innisfil Arbitration Decision on Two Hatters

[DRFF]

I just looked at this what is the Toronto FF thinking?

http://www.oafc.on.ca/lib/db2file.asp?fileid=1648

[nocomment]

I just looked at this what is the Toronto FF thinking?

http://www.oafc.on.ca/lib/db2file.asp?fileid=1648

Don't know? Anyone?

[dentedhead]

Don't know? Anyone?

I dint realize this was coming up so soon.I know Jim and he has nothing but the good of the community and the department at heart.

Barrie better be careful, rumour on the street is Innisfil is taking them over!

The guys reason for getting on Innisfill were really taking the community to heart. I almost wept reading about his dedication to the town the altrustic reason of weasling a FT job so he wouldnt have to commute....should of thought about that in the first place Einstein.

Anyone on TO know this guy and are my suspicions of him correct I wonder.

Dentedhead

[mfes04]

I don't believe an IAFF member should be volunteering on a composite dept. If he wants to volunteer for the Middle of Nowhere Volunteer Dept. where they don't have and probably never will have fulltime guys.........be my guest. The IAFF rewrote that part of the constitution to allow members to volunteer on non - IAFF or affiliate depts anyway.

Here is what just came out of the conference in Vegas.

RESOLVED, That Article XV, Section 3, of the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws shall be deleted, and that Article XV, Section 1, which sets forth misconduct prohibited by the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws, shall be amended by adding the following new subsection to the list of defined misconduct:“Working a secondary job part-time, paid on call, volunteer or otherwise as a firefighter, emergency medical services worker, public safety or law enforcement officer, or as a worker in a related service, whether in the public or private sector, where such job is within the work jurisdiction of any affiliate or which adversely impacts the interests of any affiliate or the IAFF

[DRFF]

I don't believe an IAFF member should be volunteering on a composite dept. If he wants to volunteer for the Middle of Nowhere Volunteer Dept. where they don't have and probably never will have fulltime guys.........be my guest. The IAFF rewrote that part of the constitution to allow members to volunteer on non - IAFF or affiliate depts anyway.

Here is what just came out of the conference in Vegas.

RESOLVED, That Article XV, Section 3, of the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws shall be deleted, and that Article XV, Section 1, which sets forth misconduct prohibited by the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws, shall be amended by adding the following new subsection to the list of defined misconduct:“Working a secondary job part-time, paid on call, volunteer or otherwise as a firefighter, emergency medical services worker, public safety or law enforcement officer, or as a worker in a related service, whether in the public or private sector, where such job is within the work jurisdiction of any affiliate or which adversely impacts the interests of any affiliate or the IAFF


I see what your saying but if an IAFF firefighter gets hurt volunteering whose sick time are they using, the city where they are full time. When the local goes to get a new contract and a bunch of the FF are volunteering for 15/hr and no benefits why would any city pay us $80 000/ yr to do the same job. This is adversely impacts an IAFF local. Just a thought.
There is too much grey area in this it should have been yes you can or no you can't.

[mfes04]

I see what your saying but if an IAFF firefighter gets hurt volunteering whose sick time are they using, the city where they are full time. When the local goes to get a new contract and a bunch of the FF are volunteering for 15/hr and no benefits why would any city pay us $80 000/ yr to do the same job. This is adversely impacts an IAFF local. Just a thought.
There is too much grey area in this it should have been yes you can or no you can't.

The way I read it is Yes if it is purely a volunteer dept and it is NO if it is a dept that has a firefighters union. It does sound like they are going to crack down on guys that volunteer where there is an IAFF local though. Here is the full article.......

Regarding the IAFF Constitution, it has been amended per Convention action in Las Vegas and I have copied the resolve below:



Secondary Employment Resolution Resolve - 2008







RESOLVED, That Article XV, Section 3, of the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws shall be deleted, and that Article XV, Section 1, which sets forth misconduct prohibited by the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws, shall be amended by adding the following new subsection to the list of defined misconduct:“Working a secondary job part-time, paid on call, volunteer or otherwise as a firefighter, emergency medical services worker, public safety or law enforcement officer, or as a worker in a related service, whether in the public or private sector, where such job is within the work jurisdiction of any affiliate or which adversely impacts the interests of any affiliate or the IAFF. Upon a finding of guilt of working a secondary job in violation of this subsection, it is recommended that the penalty include disqualification from holding office in any affiliate and/or expulsion from membership for the period that the misconduct persists. Charges filed for the misconduct described in this subsection shall be preferred by a member of the charged party’s local and/or a member of an adversely affected affiliate;” (emphasis added) and be it further



RESOLVED, That the IAFF shall create and maintain a database to track the experience of secondary employment among our affiliates, including the prevalence and type of such employment, the filing of charges related to such employment, and the outcome of trial boards and appeals deciding those charges; and be it further



RESOLVED, That the IAFF shall create and, at the request of any affiliate through its District Vice President, distribute educational materials to the requesting affiliate regarding the constitutional prohibition on secondary employment, including the basis for this prohibition, and the experience of our affiliates in dealing with this issue.

[Leafs Fan]

I will assume from this award , The arbitrator MR.Shine QC will never be agreed to by a local in Ontario ever again. nice of him to award damages to the corporation though, that should set a nice precedent for future grievances filed by locals. Next time a Corporation takes a local to arbitration for a matter for the umpteenth time I will hope to say expenses awarded.

[itsnotahobby]

I like how the arbitrator stated in the award the L.3888 did not take steps towards there member when in fact Scott called this guy up and told him to forget about two-hatting.

With regard to the change of the constitution I disagree with them doing it. There are too many factors involved besides just effecting a composite department.

[mfes04]

I like how the arbitrator stated in the award the L.3888 did not take steps towards there member when in fact Scott called this guy up and told him to forget about two-hatting.

With regard to the change of the constitution I disagree with them doing it. There are too many factors involved besides just effecting a composite department.

You are probably right but........ agree or disagree, what is done is done. I wonder how the IAFF is going to police this though. I guess what ever local is affected would have to complain. Time will tell.....

[itsnotahobby]

You are probably right but........ agree or disagree, what is done is done. I wonder how the IAFF is going to police this though. I guess what ever local is affected would have to complain. Time will tell.....

Basically same as before. The local that is affected will have to file charges.

[Dubya]

volunteering for 15/hr How about $500/year off my income tax, and a license plate? :D

I can see the IAFF's concern about injury time...although wouldn't the nature of the injury determine how much sick time or LTD coverage the member was eligible for? Most employers do, and that's why our (volunteer) department has its own LTD coverage.

Where both involved departments are IAFF shops it's certainlu obvious that you don't want a municipality using volunteers' time as a method of controlling labour costs, instead of using volunteers as a "force multiplier" to get more service than the municipality can otherwise afford.

[Hoofhearted]

I don't believe an IAFF member should be volunteering on a composite dept. If he wants to volunteer for the Middle of Nowhere Volunteer Dept. where they don't have and probably never will have fulltime guys.........be my guest. The IAFF rewrote that part of the constitution to allow members to volunteer on non - IAFF or affiliate depts anyway.

Here is what just came out of the conference in Vegas.

RESOLVED, That Article XV, Section 3, of the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws shall be deleted, and that Article XV, Section 1, which sets forth misconduct prohibited by the IAFF Constitution and By-Laws, shall be amended by adding the following new subsection to the list of defined misconduct:“Working a secondary job part-time, paid on call, volunteer or otherwise as a firefighter, emergency medical services worker, public safety or law enforcement officer, or as a worker in a related service, whether in the public or private sector, where such job is within the work jurisdiction of any affiliate or which adversely impacts the interests of any affiliate or the IAFF



Now if you could only get your own members and Brampton and Toronto to stop "volunteering" in Hamilton.

[itsnotahobby]

Now if you could only get your own members and Brampton and Toronto to stop "volunteering" in Hamilton.

Agreed, but maybe locals need to step up now with the new wording and start filing charges themselves.

[mfes04]

Now if you could only get your own members and Brampton and Toronto to stop "volunteering" in Hamilton.

As I stated earlier, I am against IAFF members volunteering for a dept. that is composite. ie: another IAFF local.
Our IAFF local #1212 has stated that they will talk to our guys that are volunteering on composite depts. if and when the local affected puts a complaint into us. If you have an issue with our guys in "volunteering" in Hamilton, I suggest you take it to your next union meeting. If your local agrees I am sure they will be getting on the phone to TO, Brampton and us. All of our members have been made aware of the constitution change regarding two-hatting where another IAFF local is present. (Well that is assuming they checked our union local website lately.)

[colin911]

If the arbitrator is saying that the collective agreement doesn't specifically say that the IAFF constitutions are a part of it, then isn't a simple solution to make that part of the agreement?
Brampton is composite and the union "recognizes" the need for volunteers, why can't we put in a clause or stipulation in our contract that no volunteer can be a member of another IAFF local?

[pyauthier]

Maybe they should go at any firefighters that has has a secondary employment... Construction workers (general injuries), painters (shoulder injuries), any side-business where a guy hires somebody else (becomes a non-unionized boss himself...)...

This was sarcasm...

I agree with: you should not volunteer in a city that relies on a part-time workforce where they should have full-time staff.

I dont agree with the fact that for some guys like me, I can't work part-time as a paramedic to fill sick time, or allow other workers to get some vacations and and on the other hand I see guysrunning their construction business from the station.

If you want to do something, dont do it halfway, cut it out for everybody.

[grey]

This is exactly why the local where the two-hatter is a member should lay charges. An arbitrator can't rule against the president of another local for interfering...

[dentedhead]

Maybe they should go at any firefighters that has has a secondary employment... Construction workers (general injuries), painters (shoulder injuries), any side-business where a guy hires somebody else (becomes a non-unionized boss himself...)...

This was sarcasm...

I agree with: you should not volunteer in a city that relies on a part-time workforce where they should have full-time staff.

I dont agree with the fact that for some guys like me, I can't work part-time as a paramedic to fill sick time, or allow other workers to get some vacations and and on the other hand I see guysrunning their construction business from the station.

If you want to do something, dont do it halfway, cut it out for everybody.

Is Gatineau even in the IAFF? I am only asking becayuse I know that Montreal and Quebec city are not.

I dont understand why you cant work PT as a medic.We have a bunch of guys that work for various services and they say ther are quite a few FFs doing the same from other depts.

IAFF has no trouble with it in Canada since fire and EMS are seperater entities.

Dentedhead

[WolfmanHarris]

I dont understand why you cant work PT as a medic.We have a bunch of guys that work for various services and they say ther are quite a few FFs doing the same from other depts.


My service has Medics who are FF's from Toronto, Brampton, Vaughan, Central York and Markham and that's just who I know of off the top of my head.

[itsnotahobby]

My service has Medics who are FF's from Toronto, Brampton, Vaughan, Central York and Markham and that's just who I know of off the top of my head.

The issue is that we follow the constitution of the IAFF as chartered members. In the constitution it speaks to working as a paramedic because as stated before in the US many departments have paramedics where as this is not the case in Canada. Therefore this is basically looked over up here as it is not an issue as it would be down there.

[pyauthier]

Is Gatineau even in the IAFF? I am only asking becayuse I know that Montreal and Quebec city are not.

I dont understand why you cant work PT as a medic.We have a bunch of guys that work for various services and they say ther are quite a few FFs doing the same from other depts.

IAFF has no trouble with it in Canada since fire and EMS are seperater entities.

Dentedhead
There's effectively no IAFF in Qc. I live in Gat, but travel to work... I had to sign a waiver stating that I would have to resign from any part-time firefighting or EMS jobs when I got hired... It was fine by me until I noticed so many people were working on the side (non-emergency related...) and nobody were even asking questions about that...

Funny thing is, Fire running to more and more EMS calls and the fact that most of the time, any crew is happy to have somebody on board that has knowledge and experience dealing with medical responses, I find it's a bit of a deception that I have to feel bad about wanting to maintain skills in a ''prohibited" side-line.

I am happy to have an electrician in my crew when we face electrical problems or somebody with extensive knowledge of building construction when dealing with lightweight structures... Why should an Union be after his members if their contribution to the team is to be efficient on medical calls...
When you get hired in my city, you still have to sign a waiver saying that you will leave any EMS or part-time firefighting jobs...

A smaller community with no whatsoever chances of becoming a full time department should have the opportunity to have a couple members that are professionals. Since it's their main job, they are more trained. When responding in their districts, aren't they not helping to keep their volunteer colleagues safe?

[deville]

I think double hatting is OK and is an asset to other communities. This may be off topic but just because a FF is career doesn't mean the he/she is more "professional" and more trained than his/her dedicated POC/volly brother/sister. This mindset is still kicking around out there and it kinda sucks, in my opinion of course. Don't get me wrong, Im pro IAFF but it doesn't mean you know firefighting any better/more than us dedicated POC/vollys. Saying this there are those vollys that are there for the hat and jacket and that's all, GRRR! There's some "professionals" that are on the job for just that reason too, don't kid yourself.
Anyway that's my rant for the day and I'm sure my IAFF brothers/sisters are going to comment to this rant.

Stay safe out there.

Cheers.

[Profire]

deville, You are absolutely right, your rant is off topic, and irrelevant to the issue

[deville]

Im glad to be finally put in my place by a "professional" firefighter.

All I can say is, if the IAFF local or department you're employed with says no part time firefighting or other PT work than you don't if you want to work "on the job" as a firefighter. Sounds very simple to me. I don't know why this topic is so hard for people to understand.


My $0.02

Cheers.

[nocomment]

deville, You are absolutely right, your rant is off topic, and irrelevant to the issue

I agree, that is off topic and there is no reason to bring up that stupid debate AGAIN.

[kriand]

I agree, that is off topic and there is no reason to bring up that stupid debate AGAIN.

At least we haven't had a green light topic for a while:eek::eviltongue:

[mfes04]

Can't well all just get along???????

Everybody...............Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya

[thegoods]

ok talking about that volly dept that has its own LTD. that is great! BUT, what if when the professional firefighter gets hurt while working for this volly dept? Now, this injury will take 20 weeks until he can hit the floor again. Awesome, he will recieve LTD from the volly dept, but he's going to miss work from his F/T dept. So, now he has to get shift trades, guys covering ALL his shifts, until he can return to full duty. If not, he is absent from showing up for his shift, and grounds for dismissal. And believe me, this full time dept admin. will be looking for a reason by this point to get rid of him after finding out through the grapevine what has happened. This is the real problem for the F/T professional FF, no?

[teeman]

so which depts in southern ont turn a blind eye to double hatters? i heard that their is some but no one will mention the names, please pm me.

[dentedhead]

so which depts in southern ont turn a blind eye to double hatters? i heard that their is some but no one will mention the names, please pm me.

Basically any dept thats not composite or in an area that should have FT protection or in a location that is likely never to go FT.

Scabbing in a composite dept is just wrong IMHO......no offense to a certain pal of mine.

Dentedhead

[teeman]

Basically any dept thats not composite or in an area that should have FT protection or in a location that is likely never to go FT.

Scabbing in a composite dept is just wrong IMHO......no offense to a certain pal of mine.

Dentedhead

sorry, but i meant which FT depts?

thanks

[PNEFD]

What Dented is saying, is that most, if not all will look the other way if the criteria he posted is met.