Save Our Paramedics

[BenDiesel]

BC Paramedics are in a fight for their future with their employer. Please visit this site and help support BC Paramedics.

http://www.saveourparamedics.com/

Also check out the Facebook group of the same name. Any and all support would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Ben

[firemedic379]

Glad to see thats its posted.

Thanks Ben

[futureFF]

We were talking about this in my EMR class last week. As for the 2$/hour pay, it is not much, but it does jump up to $16.50 or so when you go out on call and are paid for 4 hours even if the call only lasts 30 mins. So you deffinetley need a full time job while doing your probation in the more rural areas. But from an employer point of view, paying medics full wage for 12 hours while they may only see 3 or so calls is not entirely worth it. But i can see the argument on both sides.

[firemedic379]

Hi futureFF,

Here is the little education of the paramedics of BC and the fight for pay.

True, you do make $2 an hour and get paid when you get a call out but you are lucky to get a call in 24hrs. The $2 has been a recent implementation, prior to that you got nothing unless you got a call. Grant it an improvement but not much. That wage is paid only for that 4 hrs. The contract before if you got another call out in that 4 hrs you received another 4 hrs pay. Rare in most stations that happened however getting paid 8 hrs for working 12 was alot nicer than getting paid only for the 4 hours.

Probation in a rural area?? My friend you will be in a rural area for awhile. Yes you will be allowed to lateral after the 6 months probation but you aren't going far or to a higher call volume station. Figure on being in a rural station for 2-3 years. Further to that its at least 5 years to go full time.

Yes granted the wage is 16.50 and get used to that wage as it is like that for 5 yrs until you hit your 5 yr rate. At a 15 yr PCP rate I make $25 plus 17% in lieu of benefits.

That fair employer that you speak of, has given paramedics here in BC the Olympic ring contract, which is a 0,0,0,0 and wait for it 0 for a five year contract.

I hope this gives you a little better info on why the website is in place

Cheers,

Derek

[FireChef]

Also with some of the stations, they implamented (sp?) the Fox shift, which was $10/hr to stay at the station, and then when you have a call out your wage would then move to the according rate.

[Bubba]

I'm glad to see someone (the union ?) is trying to be on the ball. This effort is a day late and a dollar short though. Myself, I will write my M.L.A. and the Premier, join the face book group and send this to all of my contacts, but don't expect most of the people who go to that site to make that much effort. There should be an official petition on this site demanding the province respond to this issue.

I fear it is too late though, even threads on this site point to the demise of ambulance services as we know them, "Alexis Creek" and more recently "Winnipeg response times" are two that I responded to in reference to the issue.

Who is to blame for this ???... FIREFIGHTERS plain and simple. Not just any old firefighters either, all the good brothers in the cities that think they have more right to call each other that because they are in a union. They should have known better and been the first ones to say "thats not my job" and none of this crap would be going on now. Since this practice of firefighters offering patient care is commonplace in said cities it's starting to make its way to the rural area's.

Go ahead... call BULL$HIT, check my posts and say I'm wrong.

I can feel the love coming my way already... nightie night

( and yes my spell check accepted every word ).

[North_of_60]

Who is to blame for this ???... FIREFIGHTERS plain and simple. Not just any old firefighters either, all the good brothers in the cities that think they have more right to call each other that because they are in a union. They should have known better and been the first ones to say "thats not my job" and none of this crap would be going on now. Since this practice of firefighters offering patient care is commonplace in said cities it's starting to make its way to the rural area's.


I want to make a couple of things clear before I comment on Bubba's post. I currently work in a combined Fire EMS system and I am proud to work as both a Firefighter and as a medic.

So it is the fault of firefighters. Let’s compare apples and apples. Paramedics in BC who are making $2/hr are NOT in urban centers....They are in rural and remote areas where most fire departments are VOLUNTEER (ie NO standby pay). The medics on our service make nothing unless they get a call, at which point they get a flat rate per call.

Many people who try to get on to fire departments go through tough times and wait years to get on to their dream job, most of the time while not being able to do it at all, or volunteering and getting no pay. The fire service has done a great job in pushing for improvements to our building codes etc which have caused a reduction in the need for our services, so diversification is important. This is seen in the number of departments (especially career) who have specialized rescue teams and many departments who have taken on EMS, either completely (examples: Winnipeg, Yellowknife, Strathcona County) or have First Responder programs. This has allowed many places to keep their level of fire protection up as well as allowing many places that could not afford to have full time fire fighters to have them as they are combined firefighter/medics.

I think that there are many issues with the Ambulance service in BC. The first one is that it is about a years wait right now to get into the PCP program at the JI in the Lower Mainland. The second is that they took away the in house training which used to be the apple on the stick for going out to a remote station (you go to a remote station, we pay for you training). The third is unfortunately the fact that there is a provincial service, so municipalities do not have a say in the staffing of the stations in their communities.

I do believe that Paramedics deserve to be treated with respect as emergency professionals and deserve to be paid as such; however blaming Fire Departments for expanding their roles to ensure their survival is not the way to get there. Get involved with your union, be vocal to your public officials and make sure you vote. This is how you get things done and keep yourselves in the publics eye in a positive way.

I hope that things do change for BCAS. You have some of the finest people in the world working for you and you deserve to get your due.

Stay Safe,

North of 60

[Profire]

Wow, I had a little bit of empathy building up there for those BC paramedics, the Bubba came along and pissed it all away.

Don't blame us because your union has not been as successful as ours and your wages and benefits are inferior. I'm thinking if most of you think the way Bubba does you will never make any serious gains till you have a major attitude adjustment.

[BenDiesel]

I don't believe that the fire departments are to blame. It is the government. The government runs the ambulance service and the government runs the licensing for the first responder program. If the ambulance felt it was threatened by fire departments, the government won't allow fire departments to respond. The issue is all about dollars and cents. If the municipalities are willing to send a first responder fire department to the call, the ambulance only has to send one ambulance, thereby saving many. The ambulance service is so short of cars in the city that it realizes of the FD's to operate. The FD's/Municipalities need to tell the government that yes we will respond to your calls but ambulance is the responsibility of the BC Government and every ambulance call we attend, we will be billing the government. This would make the government shit or get off the pot by staffing more ambulances or downloading the service to the fire departments. Just my opinion. Fire Halls in the GVRD out number ambulance station 7 to 1.

[Bubba]

Wow, I had a little bit of empathy building up there for those BC paramedics, the Bubba came along and pissed it all away.

Don't blame us because your union has not been as successful as ours and your wages and benefits are inferior. I'm thinking if most of you think the way Bubba does you will never make any serious gains till you have a major attitude adjustment.

First off, I'm a Firefighter first and foremost. If you took the time to check some of my previous posts you would see that not one person questioned my statements of what was happening with this 20 years ago. There were some major animosities between BCAS and FD's at that time, mostly in the lower mainland and on the island. Somehow at that time it all just went away, not being involved with a career department in a city I was not privy to what appeased the situation. If there was anyone here that could respond and explain how peace was achieved with this issue it would certainly clear some air. ( if nothing else it might just shut me up ).

Secondly I'm a union man through and through. I've "paid my dues" when the work available meant thats all that got paid from my cheque. I support all of my "brothers" in any workplace with their efforts in dealing with an employer. Myself, very vocal and opinionated, I don't mind kicking over a few rocks to see what crawls out, all of your gains in any union are from like minds. The way anyone thinks, speaks or their attitude have zero bearing on making any gains in bargaining. As that is done collectively. Instead of saying "Don't blame us because your union has not been as successful as ours and your wages and benefits are inferior". You should have said "don't blame us because we didn't support you when you needed it the most". Think back several years ago when the nurses unions were in the fight of their life. There were representatives from almost every union in the province ready to march on Victoria in support. Do you know what happened there...???, the union representing the lowest tier rolled over and took the hit, preventing maybe the biggest showdown in provincial history. Having run that thought through I cant help but think maybe thats what happened with BCAS so many years ago. When your union is the last one standing who will be there to support you ?.

Awaiting a definitive response...

[pitottube]

Boy, hopefully this isnt the system alberta is going after with provincial ambulance. It didnt work in Ontario, doesnt seem to be great in BC yet they try it anyway. In the day and age of combined services being the most efficient ALberta will not have any in 2 years. They may need a better pay grid to keep a decent level of service

[nocomment]

BC Paramedics are in a fight for their future with their employer. Please visit this site and help support BC Paramedics.

http://www.saveourparamedics.com/

Also check out the Facebook group of the same name. Any and all support would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Ben

Good luck with the fight guys you certainly deserve better pay and benefits. Bubba, thank you for your thoughts, I needed the laugh..........

[FFWannabe]

Hey Bubba, just wondering, aren't you trying to get on fulltime and become one of those union guys? Seems like you will someday (or maybe not) become the pot calling out the kettle.

[irsqyu]

Seems to me Bubba, you are forgetting the most important part of this equation, THE PATIENT. In most cases areas have more fire stations than ambulance bases. That's why defibs were put on firetrucks, average response time is 3 min for ff, a few more for medics(Due to #of crews and stations).

In Ontario, in our area, we were asked by the local paramedics to run defibrillators because they could not meet the response times necessary to start using the defibrillators themselves(OPALS PROGRAM depended upon response times, the medics needed our help so they could obtain funding)

In our case the paramedics have increased their manpower and vehicles and usually arrive before us, but I know they certainly appreciate some help with the stair chair, stretcher and their defib protocols.

Let's all get together brothers and sisters, we are here to save lives the fastest and most efficient way we can.
The patient does't really care who gives his heart a jump start as long as it's done as soon as possible!

[futureFF]

Let's all get together brothers and sisters, we are here to save lives the fastest and most efficient way we can.
The patient does't really care who gives his heart a jump start as long as it's done as soon as possible!

Well said Irsqyu, our main focus here is the patient.

[irsqyu]

Well said Irsqyu, our main focus here is the patient.

BTW my son is a flight medic here in Ontario, we have both agreed that the system in BC is pretty strange. He just visited a Flight Ambulance Base before Christmas when he was out there visiting and couldn't believe the difference between here and there!

The system definitely needs some work on a management level from what I have read. I would imagine though that the paramedics themselves are a highly dedicated and trained(and frustrated) bunch:)

[Rescue71]

It's very unfortunate that this post has turned sour. It was placed originally I'm sure to generate support of those of us who work for BCAS who are currently in a fight for better working conditions (anyone heard of the Port Moody trailer?), increased pay ($2 pager pay...what the frack!), and protection of our jobs (we would like to continue to do our own BP's, blood sugars and IV's thanks). The system is much different here as it is a provincial program vs other parts of Canada. Contrary to what the gov't would like everyone to believe and also how it has been portrayed in the media, there is NO shortage of qualified PCP's, only a shortage of stations and full time positions. In fact, as it has been pointed out earlier, there is a plethora of medics who get stuck in the remote stations for as long as five years before their number comes up for a full time irreg position in the lower mainland. I continue to laugh knowing that BC ambulance paramedics are not considered an essential service. We'll see what happens in March when we look at a strike vote...then we'll see the turmoil unfold. Please continue to support our cause as we all rely on each other to get the job done safely and effectively.

[Bubba]

Yes I did sour this post didn't I... apologies to BenDiesel, firemedic379, Rescue71 and any other paramedics that see this. This is a very worthwhile cause and deserves better respect. I would apologize to all the city boys also if I didn't believe I was correct albeit harsh in my view's. I am bitter now towards my dream job of firefighting full time... why ? because I'll never make it in to any department for lack of willingness to upgrade my first aid skills.
I don't believe being a good firefighter requires it, apparently 9 of 10 municipalities don't agree. My awesome Teamster job is in the toilet now and I am on the hunt for good work. Many years ago ( when Jack was still a trainer at the J.I. ) things were very different. I guess this means I am officially set in my ways and becoming a jaded old man.

Anyways, I'm going to see if the Mounties will take me before I'm too old to apply. All I'm missing for that is infant CPR.
I'd say no hard feeling's but obviously I'd be lying, Take care folks.

[irsqyu]

because I'll never make it in to any department for lack of willingness to upgrade my first aid skills.

You are right on there! Not only do firefighters look after the public but we need to be trained in first aid for each other. It certainly gives me comfort to know that those around me can do something should I have the big one or get injured at a call.

I doubt if the RCMP would want you either if you weren't willing to upgrade your First Aid skills. Same scenario as Fire, I am sure any cop would be feeling a little more comfortable knowing his partner could help him should he/she be injured.

Attitude is the #1 attribute for a career firefighter. Maybe you could be a tow truck driver(sorry DH), you could attend the scenes and not have to do first aid or anything else:mad:

BTW all you BC medics, I am in total agreement that you are being shafted, I will join your groups to show support

[Profire]

BTW all you BC medics, I am in total agreement that you are being shafted, I will join your groups to show support

I would agree with that, paramedics certainly have a difficult job, one you could not pay me enough to do

[FFGrump]

Yes I did sour this post didn't I... apologies to BenDiesel, firemedic379, Rescue71 and any other paramedics that see this. This is a very worthwhile cause and deserves better respect. I would apologize to all the city boys also if I didn't believe I was correct albeit harsh in my view's. I am bitter now towards my dream job of firefighting full time... why ? because I'll never make it in to any department for lack of willingness to upgrade my first aid skills.
I don't believe being a good firefighter requires it, apparently 9 of 10 municipalities don't agree. My awesome Teamster job is in the toilet now and I am on the hunt for good work. Many years ago ( when Jack was still a trainer at the J.I. ) things were very different. I guess this means I am officially set in my ways and becoming a jaded old man.

Anyways, I'm going to see if the Mounties will take me before I'm too old to apply. All I'm missing for that is infant CPR.
I'd say no hard feeling's but obviously I'd be lying, Take care folks.


Your un-willingness to upgrade your first aid skills and insistance of rejecting the norm across all of north america for delivery of emergency medical services shows that you do not belong in this field anyway. Save your application to the RCMP because you are right anyone with your beliefs is just a jaded old man and doesn't belong in any emergency service.

[Profire]

Well I'm gonna backwater a bit, I feel sort of bad for someone realizing that their dream is not going to come about. I know if that happened to me I would have been devastated. I hope I would have taken it with better grace but to be honest who knows.

I hope something works out for you Bubba, honestly. We are not your enemy.

[firemedic379]

Bubba, thanks for the apology and its all good. Trust me if I took it personally every time someone had a different opinion on prehospital care I would have some serious issues. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and thats what makes web boards like this entertaining.

All any paramedic here in BC is asking is for support and it does mean alot, both in the political arena and the public eye.

Long and the short we are here for the patient and it doesn't matter if you are wearing a white shirt or dark blue. I have been asked what fire department I work for when I am wearing the BCAS uniform and conversely been questioned why were are there as a firefighter, as the patient isn't on fire.

Thanks for the support and we will see what the province has in store for us.

Cheers,

Derek

[firefighter26]

I agree that it should be about patient care, so I often wonder why we as firefighters and paramedics can't share the load a bit more?

On the record, I support 100% that BCAS paramedics should receive a reasonable wage increase as well as changes, for the better, in their working conditions (more ambulances, more full time staff, better equipment and training, etc).

Realistically, I understand that you guys (and gals) are the quintessential example of over-worked and under-paid.

On a patient care level, however, I also understand that increasing the scope of practice of the fire department (like putting a paramedic on each engine) will bring about the argument of needing less ambulances because your staffing levels are being offset by paramedic level trained firefighters. We certainly don't want that to happen!

But, there are those of us in the fire service, particularly here in BC, who would like to see additional training beyond that of the FR program; especially in those remote communities, or communities with less than stellar BCAS staffing (but that goes back to the catch 22 that if we had more ambulances, the FDs wouldn't need more training).

A good case in point, I believe, is the area where I live. We have a combination department, 3 paid staff, 35 volunteers. The BCAS station has an Alpha and Kilo car (full time, and pager if I have definitions and my memory is correct). We have a population of between 10-12,000. We normally run about 750 calls a year, with a full 40-50% being first responder calls.

There have been numerous times in the last 2 years where we have been on an FR call with our local ambulance and they get a second call. They will stay with the first call and release us to attend the second call. Since we are already on the road, we're getting there faster than the Kilo unit would. Additionally, there have been a dozen times at least were a third call has come in when the Alpha unit is in town and Kilo unit is already in service. This requires a 20 minute drive for the next closest BCAS unit (about 15 if they were on station on their standby location closer to our district).

As proud as we are of our abilities as first responders, and our great working relationship with BCAS, there is only so much our training will allow us to do in these longer than normal waiting situations.

So, I think to myself that it would be great if we were allowed to further our training for when something like this happens (and it does happen) or when the number of PTs outnumber the number of paramedics on scene (I have seen as many as 9 PTs from a 2 vehicle MVA).

But, if they allow some of us to train to a higher level, then they have to allow all of us to train to a higher level, regardless. Which brings up the debate about having higher trained firefighters and needing fewer ambulances again.

So, to say it again, I 100% support BCAS in their efforts (and will be joining the various groups and sending what letters I can), but I also think something should be so that both sides of the fence, fire and ambulance, can work together to provide the best possible patient care.

Side note: I guess one thing we don't have to worry about is the RCMP wanting to train as paramedics or start carrying SCBAs in their trunks.....

[nocomment]

I would apologize to all the city boys also if I didn't believe I was correct albeit harsh in my view's.
Oh no, you mean your not gonna apologize to us? LMAO :( How will we all carry on? Once again, thanks for the laugh. This city boy has to go to his union job cya.......................

[firemedic379]

Hi Firefighter26,

Just to shed some light on the firefighter/paramedic idea, there is that ability. Kitimat fire runs the ambulance with Firefighter/PCP staffing and is the last municipal department in BC to do so (only department to be exempt from the Emergency and Health Services Act).

The YVR airport fire fighters are all trained to the EMR level and they were the first department as a whole to do so.

Here in metro vancouver multiple departments have firefighters that are PCP but grant it just a handful per department. The EMA licensing branch removed the ability to have both a PCP license and a FR license. The theory behind that was as a firefighter you can work at the FR with your PCP license.

Major problem with the higher levels of training is the cost and the time commitment and selling that mind set to a crowd that has always been used to a 5 day FR class.

The EMR program is 3 weeks fulltime or 7 weeks parttime with certification exam at the end and the EMA licensing exam to follow that.

The PCP program is 4 months full time or 9 months parttime again with the above exams.

The interesting difference between the FR license and the PCP license is the individual departments owns their firefighter's licenses. A PCP license is held by the individual and there is an obiligation to EMA licensing to have 20 patient contacts and 20 CME credits per year.

So its actually up to the municipal government to decide on the level of training that they want their firefighters to have. If you want hire level of training for Sooke fire for example, the JI or Academy of Emergency learning (Declan Lawlor) and they definately can provide that training for a cost.

Now having said all of the above, its still against the Emergency and Health Services Act (section 5, A and I) for anyone other than a BC Ambulance or ETV to transport anyone to the hospital. There are certain departments out there that transport until they meet up with BCAS (Thetis Island comes to mind) and that is with a special agreement with BCAS.

I am all for having higher level of care for the patients and it really doesn't matter what color the truck or the shirt they are wearing as long as someone's mom,dad,brother,sister,grandma,grandpa get's the same care I would expect that my family would get.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Derek

[firefighter26]

I am all for having higher level of care for the patients and it really doesn't matter what color the truck or the shirt they are wearing as long as someone's mom,dad,brother,sister,grandma,grandpa get's the same care I would expect that my family would get.


I think that pretty much sums it up right there!

As per getting a higher level of training, it would be nice just to recieve some "extra" bonus training within the FR program. Simple things like taking a BP, which is outside the scope of our FR ticket. Sure, it isn't a direct life saving skill, but it is one more thing that we can be doing on those calls where BCAS is delayed or you guys are overwhelmed; as I said in my first post, it wouldn't take much for the number of PTs to greatly outnumer the number of paramedics.

For us, I believe we have an excellent working relationship with our local BCAS station and staff. As firefighters we often talk about what we can do to better assist you guys (and gals) at our meetings. Simple things like leaving enough access room for you unit to park; moving furniture around to make getting the stretcher in and operational a lot easier, carrying/getting equipment from the ambulance that didn't get brought in.

However, while those are all things try to do to be "better first responders" it doesn't actually help us provide better patient care, and in many cases, even get hands on with the PT because our BCAS crews are often on scene before us, or right behind us.

Keeping that in mind, a few months ago I was the officer on our truck and we went to an FR call at one of our local repeat customers. BCAS wasn't on scene and I had two very new FRs with me, so I sent them to work doing their PT assessments, keeping an eye on things as the officer/senior firefighter. When BCAS arrived I met them outside, gave them a report about what was happening inside (standard SoB call all around) and that I had two new guys in there. The crew, who I have worked with before, was great for letting them stay involved in PT care even after they arrived and took over. Even something simple as allowing my guys to check a pulse during a secondary survey was a good learning experience for them (they had just got their tickets a few weeks before hand, so it was entirely new experience to them).

But that is the exception to the rule. As I said above, most of the time we are doing the grunt work and not getting an actual PT assessment experience, even at our First Responder level. Then, when $hit is really hitting the fan at a big call, I always worry that the new guys are not going to be able to step up because they lack the confidence of doing it hands on.

But, I digress as this is probably a totally different topic to discuss. The question at hand in the original post was supporting BCAS during their contract problems with the BC Government, something I still 100% do and will if called upon (and I know the local MLA on a first name basis, so I give him my opinions on the matter when I see him later next month).

This open exchange of ideas is great, and educational! Lets use it to your advantage!

[northernmedic]

FF26

I believe an answer to your question lies with abolishing the FR level of training and implementing EMR as the minimum for firefighters. As Derek mentioned there are a lot of hurdles to that, many of which can be found within the higher levels of fire departments. Cost would one major factor. The other is that the advantage of the FR program is the in house delivery model where it is relatively easy to train and recertify staff. If a higher level of training were to be implemented then there would need to be additional money spent on quality assurance and a much more involved medical director. Most departments currently have minimum medical direction other than AED program oversight. In addition say firefighters were all trained as EMR's and able administer ASA then there would need to be a significant culture shift in some departments. There are currently departments that do not complete any FR reports on any calls while there are others that are extremely diligent. You can see where I am going with this in terms of standardization. What it really boils down to is I think a lot of higher fire department leadership like the FR program for easy of use and "bang for bucks" so to speak. Plus not everyone is as keen as you. On another note I hear the FR curriculum is currently being reviewed so there may be a new and improved FR course out in the near future. In the meantime I would recommend for your department to pursue EMR training if you can afford it.

[nocomment]

There are currently departments that do not complete any FR reports on any calls while there are others that are extremely diligent.

In our defence northermedic there have been times where the FR reports have been filled out and the BCAS crews onscene want nothing to do with them. We went to a frequent flyer a year or so back then another call to her a few months later. And what do we see the FR report we filled out from the first call that was passed off to BCAS sitting on top of the TV gathering dust. But I get what your saying the whole system(FR Responders) needs to be revamped and looked at abit harder. And change has to come from the top and thats were the problem starts for sure.. This could be some nasty rounds of negotiations coming up for you guys and this Firefighter supports your cause 100 per cent.

[northernmedic]

I wasn't intending to slam any specific dept, only to illustrate my point of standardization being a hurdle. I live and work in Vancouver and get a long great with all the VFRS crews in my area. My main observations on the FR program at the street level can be summed up like this:

1) FF's like helping out at critical calls like cardiac arrests and major traumas
2) They don't mind lending a hand at other calls if required
3) They definitely don't want anything to do with transport or taking over EMS
4) We have a good working relationship between crews at the street level
5) Any push to "take over EMS" within the fire dept is more from the chief's office or maybe some other types with a more political agenda not from the front line crews at all
6) FF's and paramedics both hate their bosses at least as much ( in vancouver anyways)

[nocomment]

I wasn't intending to slam any specific dept, only to illustrate my point of standardization being a hurdle. I live and work in Vancouver and get a long great with all the VFRS crews in my area. My main observations on the FR program at the street level can be summed up like this:

1) FF's like helping out at critical calls like cardiac arrests and major traumas
2) They don't mind lending a hand at other calls if required
3) They definitely don't want anything to do with transport or taking over EMS
4) We have a good working relationship between crews at the street level
5) Any push to "take over EMS" within the fire dept is more from the chief's office or maybe some other types with a more political agenda not from the front line crews at all
6) FF's and paramedics both hate their bosses at least as much ( in vancouver anyways)

Northernmedic, sorry man I didn't think you were slamming any particular FD. Was just agreeing that the current system isn't perfect.But as for your observations on the FR program at street level you are bang on. That is exactly how we see it from the FD point of view(guys in the halls) as well. Especially like number 6 cuz it's oh so true. Once again good luck on your guys contract negotiations coming up, if anybody knows the good work you guys do its the FF's that assist you at Mesa calls. Sorry to take this thread away from its original topic.

Make sure this topic is used in your contract battle.

http://www.vancouversun.com/Homes/Metro+Vancouver+housing+costs+among+highest+world+ survey/1224307/story.html

[firefighter26]

Plus not everyone is as keen as you.

I 100% agree. There are some guys in the department that down right despise the FR program; refuse to participate in any training involved in it, refuse to attend FR calls, and do whatever they can to let everyone else know how much of a waist of time they think it is.

But, that being said, there is also a group of us that see's the good the program does and even though we know, in the back of our heads, that when we get toned for that shortness of breath call that 99% of the time all we are going to do is end up carrying the heavy stuff, we still go because 1) someone has to carry the heavy stuff; and 2) there are times were our attendance has made a difference.

Realistically, when someone gets to the point of having to call 911 it is normally because they are having a fairly significant event in their lifetime, are probably scared, in pain and need help.

Simply by showing up to help we've made that situation for that individual that much better, and if we can assist in anyway, even by carrying heavy stuff, then that's what we're there to do.

My main observations on the FR program at the street level can be summed up like this:

1) FF's like helping out at critical calls like cardiac arrests and major traumas
2) They don't mind lending a hand at other calls if required
3) They definitely don't want anything to do with transport or taking over EMS
4) We have a good working relationship between crews at the street level
5) Any push to "take over EMS" within the fire dept is more from the chief's office or maybe some other types with a more political agenda not from the front line crews at all
6) FF's and paramedics both hate their bosses at least as much ( in vancouver anyways)

BINGO! Though, for me, I don't mind our chief. I'm not best of buddies with him, but I understand he has a job to do and after looking around the station at the new trucks and gear, I figure he must be doing something right somewhere.

That being said, they had a spot on the radio where they were talking about the BCAS situation. They agreed that paramedics should be paid more, but didn't think that you guys could squeeze the government for what you have initially asked for. But, then I guess that is what negotiation is about!

[northernmedic]

We'll see how negotiations go. It's going to get pretty ugly in the next few months. Things basically have to be settled one way or the other by 2010 since they are planning on deploying something like 60 additional ambulances for the olympics. Amazing how the money comes out for olympic staffing but not for the local taxpayers who are here 24/7.

[firefighter26]

Are they going to hire additional crews for those 60 ambulances?
Or just give a lot of part time guys some extra work?

Hopefully they don't try to do some kind of fancy legislation to bind you to your current contracts until after the games, sweep it all under the rug (if no one sees it, it isn't a problem... and we all know how quickly the media forgets), and let the next government sort it out..... wait, didn't they do that to the teacher's union a while back?

[Rojaig]

Ok this is just stupid!!!

Two dollars per hour while on call and 16.50 when you have a call - big hairy deal
lets try to be slightly realistic
How about 12 hours on and 12 on call pay a rate of 26-28 for a paramedic and 21-16 for an EMT-B 2 an hour on call + time at 1.5 for a call during on call hours
it is not the best but a damn sight better that what you have now
or better yet be like a real job
work 12 hours and go home work a 5-5-4-5-5-4 rotation pay at 21-29 depending on level and ditch the on call completely

And I thought BC was all milk and honey - he he he

EMS gets the shaft once again

[Medicman1976]

Hire the staff for the olympics? They are wanting and counting on us to "volunteer" for tehse events!
To everyone thank you for your support of us.

[nocomment]

Hire the staff for the olympics? They are wanting and counting on us to "volunteer" for tehse events!
To everyone thank you for your support of us.

That's the rumour we have been hearing as well, the volunteering part. Please tell me that's not true. We aren't volunteering our time, neither is VPD. They may even contract out for Fire because we won't do it for free. BCAS should be getting paid as well for working the games. Your providing an essential service, not passing out programs and souvenirs.

[northernmedic]

I am not too involved with the detailed planning but the last I heard was this: THe original plan called for a lot of extra ambulances as well as EMS venue response. VANOC freaked at the price tag for that much equipment and staff so apparently VANOC has assumed responsibility for much of the spectator EMS response. There will still be many additional ambulances and an extra helicopter on standby. All BCAS staff working will be paid and they will most likely be using mass overtime and will be cancelling all training courses and holidays for the duration.

Now the rumour that I have heard is that VANOC is using volunteers for the spectator medical response. Athletes and EMS units will be staffed by paid health care staff. In reality I have not heard where these volunteers will come from. Some say SJA or Canadian ski patro or a mish mash of anyone with some kind of training from across Canada. This will most likely blow up if it is indeed the case since VANOC will essentially have to build an EMS service from scratch including radios and and all. The equipment costs alone would be in the millions just to start a first responder level service and would only go up from there if they want to use PCP or ACP level staff.

On another note I heard tha VANOC is expecting 400 nurses to volunteer to do venipuncture for the anti-doping side. I thought that was pretty funny too.

It's interesting how they would be considering contracted fire coverage. The same argument for cost would apply. Building a fire service from scratch is even more expensive that EMS.

[firefighter26]

I know volunteering has its merits and its place in society; I did a few years with SJA in Duncan. However, for an event such as the olympics I think it would be pretty irresponsible to rely so heavily on them.

I worked some good sized events, such as the BC senior games and a motor cross rally, however none of these would even compare to the size of even the smallest olympic event/venue.

If they want the volunteers that hand out brochures and flyers to have medical training, I can see that as an added bonus built in, but to an event of this scope is going to need real experience, organization and a command and control system beyond letting loose 300 people with various levels of training, competence and experience to wondering the venues looking for trouble, so to speak.

And that doesn't include any disaster planning should the worst happen during the games. Natural Disaster, building collapse, terrorist attack. The potential is there for the largest mass casualty scene the province has ever seen.

But then again, as emergency service providers; firefighters, paramedics, first responders, volunteer, career, whatever; we know all if this, but politicians are to busy looking at the bottom line or worried about looking bad for re-election to live in the real world.

[firemedic379]

Unfortunately its easier than you to contract that out. I know Haliburton's fire protection division has been sniffing around Vancouver in the last 18 months and having meeting with Vanoc.

They helped out at the Salt Lake City olympics and had a presence at the Beijing games but not in an official capacity as a responding agency but as a technical advisory role.

The good thing is these guys can't be cheap and I know Vanoc crapped when BCAS put their proposal in but kind of interesting just the same.

Cheers,

Derek

[Squamish-FF]

Just a note, on the PCP's working as FR on truck.

It probably has been mentioned before, but , you can work on truck without a FR license if you have a higher one but must not exceed the scope of practice that the FR license provides.

Now, your department can run a entire PCP or ACP engine if they choose but the department will have to take over the indemnification (liability) as they will no longer be under the BCAS umbrella. That of course is the basic thought. The implementation process will be far more complicated (training, staffing of replacement FF while others are gone for a year or 2,equipment purchasing) etc.

The Paramedics could really use the lobbying support of the FD to help with the cause but I have not seen mass support from the high end (Chiefs/Managers). If the FD starting putting pressure on the Mayors who in turn pressured the Government, thing start to happen. The Mayors and council actually have a lot of power in the big picture. The Government of the day actually does care what they say!
I am impressed with the ground troop support of our fellow brother and sister Firefighters, though.

Please checkout saveourparamedics.com and do what you can.

Thank you from all us Paramedics that are also your Firefighting brethren!

[nocomment]

The Paramedics could really use the lobbying support of the FD to help with the cause but I have not seen mass support from the high end (Chiefs/Managers).

And unfortunately you probably won't either. These same Chiefs/Managers don't even support the people that work for them!!!!

[Squamish-FF]

Yes, unfortunately! It is hard to find good upper management. It is sad to see the Chiefs turn into politicians after many good years of being an actual Firefighter.

[Rojaig]

It sucks - plain and simple
There is no reason why a qualified EMT/ EMTA or EMTP should basically be a volunteer for the province. Health care (and Fire) are essential to the well being of the populace. Like insurance it has to be there and it costs what it costs. In order to have the people in place to perform the service you gotta pay for it. So, what does it all mean???
Pay the guys and girls at a level that they can sustain a standard of living that is worthy of their service. I am not sure what the cost of living is in rural BC but the union agreement I work under starts a PCP / EMT at $21/hr and in progresses from there, with experience and education adding to that. we work a 5-5-5-4-4-5 schedule and run 24hr shifts 12 at pay and 12 at call rate ($4.12/hr for casuals $2.15/hr for full time) BC should get it's collective shit together. BTW there are a lot of private services in SK that are looking for people but they are non-union and the pay structure is different not quite as sucky as BC but not really great
check the SEMSA website (www.semsa.org) for listings and paramedic network news as well although they are not necessarily all current. hope that helps

[bcasmed]

There are many paramedics working in BC with their EMA2. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I've been told that EMA2 was a 6 week course. Combine that with a 3 week EMA course they originally took and you have a whopping 9 weeks of education. Even us PCP's finish school in 3 months.

Put yourself in the public's shoes. Why would they want to pay someone with 9 weeks of post secondary education 70k a year? Hairdressers go to school longer. To make matters worse BCAS will hire just about anybody.

minimum standard of hiring + minimum level of education = minimum pay

If your job is 'hard' or you do 15 calls a night, nobody cares. If we paid people based on the difficulty of their job, manual laborers would make 150k a year. Same goes for paramedics deserving money because it's a 'higher calling'. If wages were based on a persons contribution to society, then social workers would be making 150k.

Don't shoot this messenger here. This is how people feel when they know the true scope of PCP's in BC.

[FireChef]

I went to school for a year full time for cooking, and then 3 more months of schooling for the apprenticeship, and I am making $15/hr, and that is after working in the industry for 12 years. It used to be one of the most highly regarded professions around, but its gone by the wayside. There is nowhere on god's green earth that would pay me what other jobs would with that experience, ie electrician, plumber, carpenter. Unless I get into a union job at the hospital or old folks home.

[Paraone]

I feel one of the BIG issues here is that paramedics me included only get paid 2.00 hour while on stand by at the station. I feel it is time that BCAS recognizes that times have changed and we deserve a pay increase while carrying the pager.

[Squamish-FF]

bcasmed, you state,

"If your job is 'hard' or you do 15 calls a night, nobody cares. If we paid people based on the difficulty of their job, manual laborers would make 150k a year. Same goes for paramedics deserving money because it's a 'higher calling'. If wages were based on a persons contribution to society, then social workers would be making 150k."

With that thinking, why should Career Firefighters get paid more for the occasional structural fire or bad MVA?

It is for the "insurance" or for when the inevitable strikes. You pay the emergency worker well to keep good people responding. Nobody is asking for $150k but parity with other emergency workers is only fair. If you are critically injured or ill then it all makes sense and a fair paid crew is totally worth it.

As you are aware, there are no longer EMA 2's only PCP's. The majority of EMA 2's got their training after years of EMA 1 and plenty of "Street Training", so they didn't just walk off the street and enter the classroom, like most of the PCP's today. No slight intended.

And, no I was not one of those EMA 2's.

The training of PCP is the same across Canada, as long as they follow the NOCP's. Their scope of practice may vary from different medical direction.
BCAS PCP-IV Paramedics are closer to the realm(I stress closer)of ACP than many BLS providers in North America. The scope of practice is what I am referring to. I believe the public gets a pretty good bang for the buck, of course as like in any profession or walk of life, there are good and bad medics.

"Why would they want to pay someone with 9 weeks of post secondary education 70k a year? Hairdressers go to school longer. "

I will tell you why I have no problem with my tax dollars going toward this, because if the hair dresser screws up, I have a bad haircut for a month and when my life is in the hands of the Paramedic, I may live or die! Of course that is a wide spectrum but you get the idea. So, just as my tax money goes to pay Career Firefighters and Police, I say let the Paramedics be paid the same.. Fair is fair..One team,One goal and that is you the potential patient!

[bcasmed]

Squamish-FF, I appreciate an articulate response. I understand where your coming from, but I can't agree with you for a number of reasons.

You say we should pay the emergency worker well in order to "keep good people responding". With the hiring practice of BCAS, your neither retaining or attracting good applicants. Before you pay a competitive wage, they have to first be competitive. In my opinion, parity with other emergency workers might make things "equal" but it certainly wont be "fair". People work harder to be hired by police and fire. Like I mentioned in my previous post, your job description doesn't make your wage, it's far more complicated than that.

As for your statement about there being no EMA 2's. I can assure you there are many EMA 2's working for BCAS with their 9 weeks of training. The only thing that changed is licensing just branded them as PCP's one day. Changing their name means nothing. If we called everyone who worked for BCAS a doctor would that make them all qualified physicians?

You concluded with...

"I will tell you why I have no problem with my tax dollars going toward this, because if the hair dresser screws up, I have a bad haircut for a month and when my life is in the hands of the Paramedic, I may live or die!"

So paying your existing paramedics more money will turn them into outstanding medics overnight? It makes no sense. I agree paramedics can be a critical part of acute care, but we wont reach our potential by simply getting more money. We need to show people were worth it first. Paramedics need to create a more powerful resume before they start demanding parity. They can start with a selective hiring process and demand a higher level of education.

[firechick15]

I don't know where you got the info about FF's training harder(police yes) than paramedics but you are totally out in left field. Do you know how many FF's don't have post secondary education and how easy it is to get ridiculous courses to count as credits for the fire dept. I know numerous FF's that have fudged #'s to get jobs. It is not that hard. There are still F.D.'s that don't require post secondary education and minimal skills. I am trained as both a FF and paramedic and the training I did and continue to do is what got me hired with BCAS. I have a degree as well as ongoing courses that I take to make myself a better paramedic, so when you say BCAS is basically scraping the bottom of the barrel for new hires then to say the least, I am very offended. You have no idea what people have on their resumes so I think it is very unfair of you to make comments like you did on the PCP course and the people coming out of it. Yes there are a few that are questionable but if you look at police and fire there are a few that are in those professions that should not be on the job. Our wage as paramedics is an issue(p/t pager pay) and if we were paid so that we didn't have to have 2nd jobs maybe some of these good paramedics that you don't get to see on the streets to often would be able to do the job they love. BCAS hires alot of young kids with no life/school experience because they are the only ones who can afford to live on pager pay and the uncertainty of shifts or not in the city. They still live at home, don't have mortgages and family and can work 24/7. If paramedics were paid on par with other emegency services then you would find more life experience, maturity and education in the paramedics coming out of the PCP programs. Paying paramedics more money is not going to make good medics over night but it is sure going to allow some of the paramedics with the great education/resumes to actually get out on the front lines and do the job they signed up to do

[MadMedic]

First off I wish to thank all of you for your support, Also, we never seem to get a chance to tell you all "thank you" for all the help you give us on calls everyday & night so let me just say: THANK YOU! You guys have made so many hairy calls go smoothly for me over the years lol. Our strike action is just geting warmed up here in BC and any support from you all is really appreciated.

[Profire]

Madmedic, I would suggest your Executive contact BCPFFA President Mike Hurley and IAFF 6th District VP Lorne West for any formal support for your struggle.

Best of luck brother

[MadMedic]

Madmedic, I would suggest your Executive contact BCPFFA President Mike Hurley and IAFF 6th District VP Lorne West for any formal support for your struggle.

Best of luck brother

Gracias mate, I'll do that.

[MadMedic]

bcasmed, you state,

"If your job is 'hard' or you do 15 calls a night, nobody cares. If we paid people based on the difficulty of their job, manual laborers would make 150k a year. Same goes for paramedics deserving money because it's a 'higher calling'. If wages were based on a persons contribution to society, then social workers would be making 150k."

With that thinking, why should Career Firefighters get paid more for the occasional structural fire or bad MVA?

It is for the "insurance" or for when the inevitable strikes. You pay the emergency worker well to keep good people responding. Nobody is asking for $150k but parity with other emergency workers is only fair. If you are critically injured or ill then it all makes sense and a fair paid crew is totally worth it.

As you are aware, there are no longer EMA 2's only PCP's. The majority of EMA 2's got their training after years of EMA 1 and plenty of "Street Training", so they didn't just walk off the street and enter the classroom, like most of the PCP's today. No slight intended.

And, no I was not one of those EMA 2's.

The training of PCP is the same across Canada, as long as they follow the NOCP's. Their scope of practice may vary from different medical direction.
BCAS PCP-IV Paramedics are closer to the realm(I stress closer)of ACP than many BLS providers in North America. The scope of practice is what I am referring to. I believe the public gets a pretty good bang for the buck, of course as like in any profession or walk of life, there are good and bad medics.

"Why would they want to pay someone with 9 weeks of post secondary education 70k a year? Hairdressers go to school longer. "

I will tell you why I have no problem with my tax dollars going toward this, because if the hair dresser screws up, I have a bad haircut for a month and when my life is in the hands of the Paramedic, I may live or die! Of course that is a wide spectrum but you get the idea. So, just as my tax money goes to pay Career Firefighters and Police, I say let the Paramedics be paid the same.. Fair is fair..One team,One goal and that is you the potential patient!

Okay, I'll bite. I am one of those EMA II's & I can tell you the PCP program is a huge improvement over the way things used to be. I also can tell you that the program is just the very beginning of your training. When I add up all the training I have done for this silly job thusfar I am just shy of 4 years of post secondary. ACP would add another 2 years onto that once all is said & done.

[medic590]

Hope BCAS comes up to the times. Here on the OTHER coast, everyone that works on a Unit gets paid for every hour they work. No on call, no volunteer. We just signed a 15.9% raise over 3years. Time and a half for any extra shift (Comes into effect March 2010) and some other things. The entry level is a 1 year PCP program and goes up to a CCP level. The wages start around the $18hr mark and top out just under $30 at the end of the contract. Not sure of the exact wages but that is the ball park.
Every station is staffed with either 12hr or 24hr shifts (Depending on call Volume) Peak units fill in the gaps for busy times.
Some stations can go for 24+ hrs without a run. The guys get paid for every hour they are there. Our system is run by the Province (EHSNS) and managed by Medive/Blue Cross (EMC) Under a sole source high performance contract.
On the FD side a medic can only pratice at the First Responder Level unless they have special permission from the Province EHSNS. Most of the FD's are VFF or Combination/Career in the more urban areas.

We are currently part of the International Union of Operating Engineers.

Keep us posted.

[MadMedic]

We had "information lines" set up outside of MLA offices throughout the Lower Mainland yesterday. Apparently, one of our guys produced some paystubs, one from 2003, the other his latest from 2009, let's just say the math did not exactly match what BCAS has been saying as Gospel! The response apparently was very positive.