New Shift?

[Pissy]

Has anyone ever heard of a 7 day 24 hour shift followed by 14 days off.
Anyone's thoughts, and or comments would be appreciated.

[FLASHOVER05]

Has anyone ever heard of a 7 day 24 hour shift followed by 14 days off.
Anyone's thoughts, and or comments would be appreciated.

I'd think that would be illegal, I recall hearing when the 24 hr shift coming into the halls there was issues against the labour code and excess work hours. The MOL deems that a maximum amount of workable hours as 14 (there are exceptions) but seven consecutive 24 hr shifts seems unreasonable

[FiremanLGT]

Has anyone ever heard of a 7 day 24 hour shift followed by 14 days off.
Anyone's thoughts, and or comments would be appreciated.


A shift like that would be illegal in all likelihood. Besides, with the 24 shift you work 7 shifts out of 28 days, in the scenario you mentioned you'd work 7 days out of 21....around a 1/3rd more. Me thinks I'd need a pay increase of 33% to agree to that ;)

[FiremanLGT]

I actually wish I could be at work more....I like the 24, and understand it is healthier, and it's great when you have young children BUT (although never doing the shift) I believe the good old 10/14 is a better shift to learn the job and develop your skills as well as the commraderie aspect with the crew. Too many people on the 24 treat the Firefighting as the part time job rather then the other way around.

my 2 cents

[Yogi]

I've worked all kinds of shift work, 10's, 12's and 24's. I've done the 9-5 racket too. And by far and away the 24 is the best shift I've ever done and I would fight to the bitter end if anyone tried to take it away from us.

just my 2 cents

[freddie]

Too many people on the 24 treat the Firefighting as the part time job rather then the other way around.

my 2 cents


It's worse in the 10/14 shifts, guys work all day at their "first job" then come in to sleep at their "second job". Now we got the two hatter situation sorted out it would be nice to see the IAFF implement rules for this behaviour.

[Profire]

It's worse in the 10/14 shifts, guys work all day at their "first job" then come in to sleep at their "second job". Now we got the two hatter situation sorted out it would be nice to see the IAFF implement rules for this behaviour.

You want your union to dictate what you can or can't do in your spare time?

[freddie]

You want your union to dictate what you can or can't do in your spare time?

No I dont, but when the alarm goes off at four in the morning I want the guy next to me to be alert not dog tired because he spent his 10 hours working when he should have been resting.

[Profire]

No I dont, but when the alarm goes off at four in the morning I want the guy next to me to be alert not dog tired because he spent his 10 hours working when he should have been resting.

That my friend is an operational requirement, and as such falls squarely on the shoulders of your Department, not your union. If you feel safety has been compromised raise the issue with your captain, if he does not deal with it go up the chain of command.

[freddie]

That my friend is an operational requirement, and as such falls squarely on the shoulders of your Department, not your union. If you feel safety has been compromised raise the issue with your captain, if he does not deal with it go up the chain of command.

And what can the dept do? If they where reported, they would just go running to the union for help, hence the reason why it would be nice for the union to lay some guidelines down. We have guidelines for two hatters why not moonlighters?

[Profire]

And what can the dept do? If they where reported, they would just go running to the union for help, hence the reason why it would be nice for the union to lay some guidelines down. We have guidelines for two hatters why not moonlighters?

The Department can do THEIR Job, if an individual is a safety hazzard deal with it, don't continue to ignore it. It is the job of the union to ensure that an individual who is disiplined is treated fairly in accordance with the collective agreement, that is part of the reason we pay union dues.

We have guiidelines for two hatters because some members were unreasonably and willfully adversely affecting other locals by volunteering in Departments that already had IAFF locals and were affecting their ability to negotiate.

[freddie]

The Department can do THEIR Job, if an individual is a safety hazzard deal with it, don't continue to ignore it. It is the job of the union to ensure that an individual who is disiplined is treated fairly in accordance with the collective agreement, that is part of the reason we pay union dues.

I agree with you 100%, it doesn't always work like that. It sounds all nice and neat but in reality it would end up a pissing match between union and city and a whole lot of money would be wasted on lawyers on both sides. Where as if the union had guidelines then individual who contravene these guidlines it would be easier to discipline them and bring them back on side.


We have guiidelines for two hatters because some members were unreasonably and willfully adversely affecting other locals by volunteering in Departments that already had IAFF locals and were affecting their ability to negotiate.

But not all two hatters where on compsite Depts, some where on depts with small call volumes. These guys still got charged and we needed some rules to sort the mess out and thats what the union did, it took a while but they did it and now we have a nice big line cross it and you get charged. That is what I suggested.
The IAFF is very pro-active in FF safety, health and wellness something which this topic falls under.

[freddie]

The second paragraph is my first reply I did it within your quote by mistake and it wont let me edit it.

[dirkjaniak]

Has anyone ever heard of a 7 day 24 hour shift followed by 14 days off.
Anyone's thoughts, and or comments would be appreciated.

Back to your original question: The only departments I've ever heard doing a 24/7 shift is the Paris Fire Brigade and Marseille Fire Brigade (France). Those guys live next to the fire halls and they are all soldiers. So I guess the french labour law doesn't apply for soldiers ;-) 'cause AFAIK the European Union has similar labour laws as Canada has.


Infos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Fire_Brigade

and if your french is better than mine:

http://www.pompiersparis.fr/accueil.htm

Those guys look damn healthy to me so that shift system can't be that bad ;-)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8lb9b_bspp-clip_news

Cheers,
DJ

[Profire]

But not all two hatters where on compsite Depts, some where on depts with small call volumes. These guys still got charged and we needed some rules to sort the mess out and thats what the union did, it took a while but they did it and now we have a nice big line cross it and you get charged. That is what I suggested.
The IAFF is very pro-active in FF safety, health and wellness something which this topic falls under.


Is that a fact? What Department is it you are with that is "charging" members' How many members have they charged?

The IAFF/IAFC Health and Wellness Initiative is non-punative and peer driven. It is not a program that you can enforce what you think someone should be doing in their off hours.

Why do you continue to ignor the Departments role and responsibilities in these matters?

[freddie]

Is that a fact? What Department is it you are with that is "charging" members' How many members have they charged?

The IAFF/IAFC Health and Wellness Initiative is non-punative and peer driven. It is not a program that you can enforce what you think someone should be doing in their off hours.

Why do you continue to ignor the Departments role and responsibilities in these matters?

Yes that is a fact!

There have been FF's charged for two hatting that where with non affiliated depts, secondly I was talking in the past tense before new rules came into effect.

My point with the health program is that the union already looks and at what we do outside work and is taking an interest and creating programs for people to help them do their job better and safer.

What reponsibilities am I ignoring please enlight me?

The IAFF and all the locals work very hard and spend a lot of money ensuring that the vast majority of us have a decent wage and a good benefit package. And then we have guys going out and pretty much saying this is still not enough I need more going out, working on the side getting injured calling in sick leaving crews short handed coming in tired. And then we have the guys working what should be union jobs taking work from our brothers in different unions.
Why are you so set against the union creating guidelines for moonlighters?

[Profire]

Yes that is a fact!

There have been FF's charged for two hatting that where with non affiliated depts, secondly I was talking in the past tense before new rules came into effect.

My point with the health program is that the union already looks and at what we do outside work and is taking an interest and creating programs for people to help them do their job better and safer.

What reponsibilities am I ignoring please enlight me?

The IAFF and all the locals work very hard and spend a lot of money ensuring that the vast majority of us have a decent wage and a good benefit package. And then we have guys going out and pretty much saying this is still not enough I need more going out, working on the side getting injured calling in sick leaving crews short handed coming in tired. And then we have the guys working what should be union jobs taking work from our brothers in different unions.
Why are you so set against the union creating guidelines for moonlighters?

I would like to know where and with what Locals these members were charged, if you are uncomfortable posting same here you could PM me.

The responsibility is your employer's to ensure that you and all their other employees enjoy a safe work place.

There will always be people who want more money and are willing to work extra hours for it. It is no different that a guy who works every hour of available overtime. If an employee is working that much that he is posing a danger to his fellow employees, then the employer is legally and morally responsible for dealing with that situation.

I would agree with you that no one should be taking work away from other union workers, and finally once again, it is not the union's place to be dictating what members do in their off hours.

[freddie]

The responsibility is your employer's to ensure that you and all their other employees enjoy a safe work place.


.

I agree, but we have such a powerfull and strong union that sometimes we can tie the hands of mangement. The resources needed to build a valid case, that a member is working when he should be resting is well beyond what mangement can or is willing to put forth. And if they did our local would fight it to the end, with both sides spending a lot of money.
With strength and power comes a lot of responsibility. I am not proposing that The IAFF bring in marshall law to it's members but working with mangement to bring some members back in line would be a not be a bad thing.

[Scratch]

I know some places do 24 hours on and 3 days off. I dont think I would like to spend all that much time with some one. A full week of work? I dont think so. That is hard on family life.

[AHFR427]

What reponsibilities am I ignoring please enlight me?



You are ignoring your responsibility to report an unsafe situation. In Ontario, the Occupational Health and Safety Act has an entire section devoted to employee responsibility.

Duties of workers
28. (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/french/elaws_statutes_90o01_f.htm#s28s1) (1) (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/french/elaws_statutes_90o01_f.htm#s28s1) A worker shall,
(a) work in compliance with the provisions of this Act and the regulations;
(b) use or wear the equipment, protective devices or clothing that the worker’s employer requires to be used or worn;
(c) report to his or her employer or supervisor the absence of or defect in any equipment or protective device of which the worker is aware and which may endanger himself, herself or another worker; and
(d) report to his or her employer or supervisor any contravention of this Act or the regulations or the existence of any hazard of which he or she knows.

This is a serious offence that Ministry of Labour inspectors are taking seriously and laying charges under the act.

Furthermore, you need to report the unsafe individual or situation so the FD supervisors are aware and can do something about it. They will not read minds. You must be the one to bring the issue forward. This is an employer/employee issue. It has nothing to do with the union at this point.

You need to realize that you have real responsibilities here.

Respectfully,

[DCCHam]

The Canadian Coast Guard coastal rescue boat crews work 7 days on, followed by 7 days off. It works the same as a fire house in that should an emergency call come in (night or day) they go.

The larger ships work 28 days on with 28 days off. As with all ships, they stand a 'watch', but are still "at work" for 24 hours a day.

[CoryT]

Yikes not sure if ppl are still reading this in regards to the shift work but heres my experience... Down in Texas virtually all (Houston is a glaring exception, running a 48/96 hours shift, but still same amount of hours worked) career departments (fully paid, no volunteers) runs a 24/48 shift. SO 7 on 14 off is the same amount of hours worked overall. It works out to be a 56 hour work week. I love this shift, best one I have ever worked. Not saying that I wouldn't mind working a 24/72 hour shift, but I have never had the chance. And in regards to working 2nd jobs, I hardly know of any firefighters that don't work second jobs, and if they don't they are the ones that will volunteer for the overtime shifts, so they are working more than their allotted time.

I even personally know a few firefighters that hold Full-time jobs at 2 fire departments, they work 24, run to the next job, work 24 and then off for a day, (48/24!!). Now granted Texas had much more lax labor laws, (actually more lax laws period) and there are no laws against this.

Heck, at the peak of my crazy schedule last year, I held my FT FFing job, working 24/48, a part time position at another 24/48 department, a pt job at a 9-5 station, a pt job as a teacher at the paramedic college, and I put in 40+ hours at my volunteer dept, all fully legal too.