Question for the Officers?

[iamvff]

Question for the Officers out there....How do you deal with members of your Volunteer Dept. that do not respect the fact that a FD is a team, and should be ran as a professional organization. I am not saying that it should be ran with an iron fist, but you need to have some organization to the dept, and they have to realize that officers are in charge, especially at a scene. The people I am talking about are the ones that have the attitude that "this is just volunteer, I don't have to answer to anyone, they are just lucky to have me"

I am not sure that I worded this the way I would like, but....comments?

Be safe
iamvff

[WFD999]

This is always tough to handle in a volunteer dept. And always is dependent on the offence. People free lancing cannot be tolerated at anytime on the fire ground. Lets say its a matter of acting professional on the trianing ground and it does not impact safety. A pull aside and a talking to usally works. I stress talking to not talking at. If such a thing continues move forward to a formal letter in there file. After this point yer dealing probably a bone head and move forward to disimissal. On the fire ground and a order is ignored which in most cases will impact safety. Start with a formal talking to and make sure the incident is mentioned in the after call debrief. At the debrief do not mention names usally the crew already knows. ( Telegraph, telephone, tell a fireman ). Peer pressure can be a amazing thing. If it is habitual a letter in there file. Then more radical err heavy handed mesures up to and includeing firing. As mister Trump says " Your Fired" Had to go through this with a free lancer and its tough went from a great hand to wing nut. Put the trianing in his hands and he thought he new it all. It went all the way to the worst case and us in the officer group were forced to relieve him premently. The crappy part was checking the pluses of the boys and making sure everyone understood so it would not impact moral in a negative way. I your having those kind of troubles I dont envy you its a tough row to hoe.

[Serpico]

Lead by example, show them whats expected. Its difficult though when you have Senior Officer's who feel the rules don't apply to them. If tough saying "do as I say, not as I or other Officers do". If you have a good group of Officers its fairly simple. This is the way the department is going to operate and if you have a problem with that let me help you with the door. Thats not to say you should not keep the lines of communication open with monthly open forums when everyone should be able to voice opinions or concerns with procedures.
If its a good old boy attitude, then send them packing its not worth the trouble trying to educate a red neck. You'll have better luck trying to teach an old dog a new trick and at least the old dog won't show up impared for practice or worse a call.

[iamvff]

I brought my concerns to our last officers meeting, and I thinkthey all see the light. It is time for change on the dept. and it looks positive. Thanks for the comments

be safe
iamvff

[rescue1008]

Well thats pretty funny......... I have no problem taking orders from our Capt. or chief. BUT I DO Have a problem taking orders from someone who is also just a member, we were told if that happens we are to inform our capt. and they will deal with it.

[iamvff]

Remember what I said about things looking positive.....yeah, never mind:confused: :confused: We had a meeting last night...same old shit! I think I will quit going to the meetings and just stay in the hall and do maintenance or something.

Be safe
from a frustrated
iamvff

[Scuba]

hmmmm rescue1008 - If somethings gotta get done, and I'm standing there doing nothing I have no problems taking orders from a lama. After all - we're a team, and I'd expect the same respect from my team mates if I were to suggest they go deal with something.



btw IMVFF - I hear your pain. I live your pain. Sometimes I wonder why I try to bother changing anything.

[DFCSmash]

Originally posted by iamvff
Remember what I said about things looking positive.....yeah, never mind:confused: :confused: We had a meeting last night...same old shit! I think I will quit going to the meetings and just stay in the hall and do maintenance or something.

Be safe
from a frustrated
iamvff

Oh man. Nothing like popularity concerns to screw up change. What you need to have is a listed chain of command and a no free-lancing policy. Baby steps, buddy. Begin with baby steps. Then one step at a time you get 'em backed into the corner you want 'em in.:D Then you will find that the rules made it easier to DEAL with the problem. You can't even get the Officers onside?????? :mad: That sucks. We'll have to talk.

:cool:

[iamvff]

Originally posted by ScubaJude
hmmmm rescue1008 - If somethings gotta get done, and I'm standing there doing nothing I have no problems taking orders from a lama. After all - we're a team, and I'd expect the same respect from my team mates if I were to suggest they go deal with something.

Hey SJ,
I know what your saying,and I agree hole heartedly, BUT...if the "LAMA" wants me to do something for them....they had better ask, not tell. Even when I am in charge, I will always remember to say "Could you please" and "Thank you". I get a million more miles out of MOST of the guys, and so far, they don't accuse me of being on an ego (you know, thinking your great...not the things you put in the toaster) trip. I alsways thank the guys when we get back to the hall and tell them good job...even when I am not in charge. Just my thoughts

Be safe
iamvff

[iamvff]

Originally posted by DFCSmash
Oh man. Nothing like popularity concerns to screw up change. What you need to have is a listed chain of command and a no free-lancing policy. Baby steps, buddy. Begin with baby steps. Then one step at a time you get 'em backed into the corner you want 'em in.:D Then you will find that the rules made it easier to DEAL with the problem. You can't even get the Officers onside?????? :mad: That sucks. We'll have to talk.

:cool:

Most of the officers are in agreement, except for one, and he is totally against change of any kind. Unfortunately, he is the type of person that everyone worships the ground he walks on reguardless of what he says or does. I don't know, for now I give up....I will start again when I am done being pissed off about it. It shouldn't take to long...the older I get the less time I spend being mad.

be safe
iamvff

[WFD999]

Just a thought here how about breaking the issue (s) into small piles of crap. Start with the smallest of the crap and slowly work your way up. Pretty soon youll have the big sh_t in a box with no way to escape except accept change. Its neat to see how one carefully worded sentence change a whole section in a GOG-SOP.

As for the furstartion Try a twenty year old scotch and a good cigar;)

[iamvff]

Originally posted by WFD999
Just a thought here how about breaking the issue (s) into small piles of crap. Start with the smallest of the crap and slowly work your way up. Pretty soon youll have the big sh_t in a box with no way to escape except accept change. Its neat to see how one carefully worded sentence change a whole section in a GOG-SOP.

As for the furstartion Try a twenty year old scotch and a good cigar;)

Thanks for the advice, I will ponder how to use it properly.

As for the other....I won't even try smoking anymore, my kids would never forgive me. and as far as the scotch....if it was any good...it wouldn't have sat around for 20 years(Yuck, bad drinking story involved) :D haha

Be safe
iamvff

[Whitewater_419]

Our hall captain is damned good at his job - He's told us that a firehall *must* be run like a military operation, which means a hierarchy not only for commands, but for complaints, change, etc. That's not to say he barks orders, but a polite "could you please..." should still be interpreted as an order :)

As for taking orders from other non-officers: I look at it like this:

A) I'm still a rookie compared to the other folks on the crew; If another member gives me an order that doesn't contravene the order from the IC or my group captain, I'm going to do it, but inform my group captain of what I'm doing.

B) Even if I wasn't a rookie, our crew is damned good - chances are that if a non-officer is giving an order, they know something about the fire scene that I don't, so I'm going to carry it out. If it's something that needs bitching about, the place to do that is back at the hall, after the vehicles have been returned to service, et al.

[cfergie]

Question for the Officers out there....How do you deal with members of your Volunteer Dept. that do not respect the fact that a FD is a team, and should be ran as a professional organization.

Remember what I said about things looking positive.....yeah, never mind:confused: :confused: We had a meeting last night...same old shit! I think I will quit going to the meetings and just stay in the hall and do maintenance or something.

????????????

This is the attitude that wears down a volunteer dept. Stand your ground and fight for what you believe in!!

[L477]

You need SOP's. The foundation of everything you do. This takes time and can be initiated from the bottom up if you like.

[bfrd22]

We have a disiplinary system in our SOG's for stuff like this, If you need an attitude adjustment you end up with a private meeting with the Chief. Then if no change placed back on probation, then out the door. My feeling is that I would rather run with smaller crew of decicated people that can be counted on than a large group with poor attitudes.

Our set up may be different as we are a paid per call dept, and as such we are part time town employees, And if your getting a pay check your attitude better be in check also.

One other way to correct attitudes is we will put these people in charge at training sessions, if they want to run the show, we let them try. Heck maybe you have an officer in the making.

Or maybe hydrant duty and offical water boy will help out for a while.

[guitarmedic87]

iamvff, I noticed you are still around this site, and I was reading through this posting, experiencing alot of the same frustrations that you were feeling 6 yrs ago. Just wondering how it is going now, did you get everything turned around?

[Pickupman]

the problem I find with volunteer depts is alot are currently in transition from the old farmers who would just wing it and werent really dedicated to training and hate change, and we are now moving towards a more professional approach with more demands in training and lots of new ideas.

it sure is hard when these two different sets of ideas clash over meetings training etc. I think this kind of politics happens everywhere, I just keep my head down and know there is light at the end of the tunnel because the old boys will retire one day and us new guys who take this as serious as if it was a career job will get the changes we want.

[guitarmedic87]

the problem I find with volunteer depts is alot are currently in transition from the old farmers who would just wing it and werent really dedicated to training and hate change, and we are now moving towards a more professional approach with more demands in training and lots of new ideas.

it sure is hard when these two different sets of ideas clash over meetings training etc. I think this kind of politics happens everywhere, I just keep my head down and know there is light at the end of the tunnel because the old boys will retire one day and us new guys who take this as serious as if it was a career job will get the changes we want.

I think we actually have the opposite problem, the older guys are the most dedicated hard working in the bunch. They come from the days when they had to do all of their own fundraising inorder to get new gear or equipment, who I have a lot of respect for. Some I agree are not in favour of change, although most, once an idea has been brought forward, and all the benefits of that idea are presented will go along with it. I find the problem lies with the newer generation who do not understand the chain of command and feel it is their "right" to be on the department. I think it is a privilege. BTW I'm not one of the "old farmers" although a farmer, I'm only 26, but have been on the department for 11 yrs. Just hoping that iamvff reponds to let us know how things turned out, what worked and what didnt, or if patience is the way to go. It seems we've been waiting about 6yrs so maybe its time for a different tactic.

[FF17]

iamvff is no longer with his old department the problem is still here but not as bad becouse the members in question have mostly left. it was not just a officer problem it was a team player problem

[iamvff]

iamvff is no longer with his old department the problem is still here but not as bad because the members in question have mostly left. it was not just a officer problem it was a team player problem

Sheesh...thats no way to talk about me!;)

[FF17]

I was not talking about you but i can so how you though that next time i will think before i type

[iamvff]

I was not talking about you but i can so how you though that next time i will think before i type

LOL...I know Gi,z I was just I was just giving you a hard time. It' prolly the 2nd time I have been on here in the last 3 years...just your luck eh! Cheers budy! Say hi to the fella's for me! I will be out for matchplay, maybe run into you then. I have to admit...I do miss the dept.

[Workru]

If your department has a Standard Operating Guide the chain of command at any incident is pre-defined. Our volunteers each receive an SOG Manual and sign an agreement that they have read the SOG and are committed to following the procedures in it. The SOG outlines disciplinary actions for any member who does not follow the expected protocol. Yes we are lenient because we are volunteers, but we are also liable for decisions and actions that occur during a response so having a predetermined action plan is important for this back-up. The key element however, is that it helps to make sure we all get home safely!
By the way, I write SOG’s for volunteer departments.

[shawn106]

Question for the Officers out there....How do you deal with members of your Volunteer Dept. that do not respect the fact that a FD is a team, and should be ran as a professional organization. I am not saying that it should be ran with an iron fist, but you need to have some organization to the dept, and they have to realize that officers are in charge, especially at a scene. The people I am talking about are the ones that have the attitude that "this is just volunteer, I don't have to answer to anyone, they are just lucky to have me"

I am not sure that I worded this the way I would like, but....comments?

Be safe
iamvff

First let me say this, Respect is something that Eveyone want,s but not all receive. Why ? well because you have to work hard and long to gain Respect you just ca not demand it! It comes with time and patience. If you respect someone you will do what he say,s no matter what rank he his. Because you trhust him and beleive in him. theyre is a big difference between respect and taking orders.

[Buckster]

Well, as a former officer this kind of thing I pushed hard on....training attendance as well......for firefighters AND officers........some didn't like it much, which is why I'm a FORMER officer and my dept is slowly falling to pieces........no training logged since '07 when I stepped down....