Volunteer decision

[sdog]

hey all.
Been a Volunteer FF at my current station for 2 years now..
some issues have arised since i have "got to know " the crew at the hall..

i am a quiet, non political , keep my nose clean type member.
here are my questions/observations.

1: i have noticed its a very "backstabby" environment people are not really
"team players" in the true sense of the word. It is more of an Every Man for
himself type team. If you cannot trust someone not to talk behind your
back, how can you possibly trust them with your LIFE?

2: after going through [and then some..]the full regimen of level 1
firefighter training , i have noticed that during training nights , a lot of
the "veteran" people are making SERIOUS mistakes, dirty looks are given when
these people are addressed on potentially LIFE THREATENING issues. Much to
my dismay, when it comes to anything other then being an IC or pumping water
, these people dont know JACK SH*T about firefighting or medical first
response.

3: and the most scary thing, is that there has been a rather large turnover
at our station.
A few of us are big guys 6'3"+ 250 lbs + and the ratio of males to very
petite females are now 1:1 which means that if i am in a hot structure ,
teamed with one of the "little ones" and heaven forbid i go down for any
reason... I am cinders.. they could not POSSIBLY move me out.


the above 3 reasons are why im SEROIUSLY considering leaving this station .
it is for my own safety and well being. Am i over reacting or do i really
have just cause to be concerned.

[iamvff]

Before you leave, try to become a leader instead of a quiter(no offense). Take a stand at your next meeting and raise the issues. If your thinking of leaving anyways, the worst that can happen is they give you the boots. I did at our firehall as far as training, or lack of traing goes. I was pleasantly surprised how many had the same views I did but didn't say anything. As far as the women issue....shouldn't be an issue. There must be a way to practice search and rescue with them and build confidence and ability in both parties. I think you would be surprised how equal we are (that one was for you Sue/Paula:) ) Don't quit something you enjoy as a result of other!!!;)

Be safe
iamvff

[DFCSmash]

Well, only from what we are told here, I woill offer the following:

1}In every workplace there are personality conflicts. Sometimes they are much smaller than the people involved think they are/ want them to be. There may be perceived cliques as well. These too are usually much smaller than they appear to be. I will admit that there are some members here that get along better with some members than others, but all that crap (and it is crap) disappears at incidents. Everybody watches everybodies back.
Sometimes a coffee out of the fire enviroment can go a long way to resolving issues.

2}Quote "other than being an IC or pumping water, these people don't know JACK SH*T about firefighting or medical first response."
Well first off let me state that I know jack about medical first response. Thats why I am not on Ambulance/ALS. I don't want to be. So I won't pass comment. How can one be a good IC if they don't know jack about firefighting? If they don't know how to fight fire, how can they give good commands to put out the fire or handle the incident. Think about it. Got an Instructor/Training Officer? Talk with them. Voice your concerns. Specifically which areas you believe need more work. You don't have to mention names. If your Instructor is any good, they will have noticed this stuff too, and will be happy to hear that someone else is seeing what they are seeing. That's why we train. So that good practices and techniques are what is remembered in the heat of battle.

3} This issue is the tricky one. I guess it comes down to how much do you care about you. If the "big guys" don't feel that certain members (sex unimportant) can get them out, then they shouldn't go in with them. Pair the "big guys" off. Put them on the RIT. They are big enough obviously to get anyone out, so let them be rescue. This way everybody's safe.

Thats all I've got. I'm sure that there will be more advice. Talk in a reasonable manner without rancor to your officers. Sometimes with a little discussion, much can be resolved.

Having said that, now I'm going to say something that may sound snarky, but it's just an observation from an old guy. It sometimes seems to me that I knew a hell of a lot more about firefighting 2 or 3 years in than I did after about 10. And I think that now, after almost 22 years, I know about half as much as I thought I knew after 2.

But I knew this then and I know it now. If I don't care about my safety and training, why the hell should anyone else. So it's your call. But, IMHO, you owe it to the rest of the members of your department to voice your concerns reasonably to the appropriate person, and expect a timely and appropriate response. Good luck.

edited for spelling only

[wilderness]

Ok...someties the old boys club attitude has to be changed,
Now we have had a issues in the pass with older members but as time goes by we get new members who join and thing progress, now as of ladies on the department i have no problems, we have one lady and i trust her with my life... are you folloing the IAFF TRAINING and if your not you should be...

[sdog]

Originally posted by wilderness
Ok...someties the old boys club attitude has to be changed,
Now we have had a issues in the pass with older members but as time goes by we get new members who join and thing progress, now as of ladies on the department i have no problems, we have one lady and i trust her with my life... are you folloing the IAFF TRAINING and if your not you should be...


i did not mention in the OP thaqt it was a BOYS CLUB AT ALL. i fully support female FF's . what i do not like about the situation is the SIZE and STRENGTH of these individuals [some men fit this category at our station too] picture a 5'2" 100 lb female trying to carry out a 6'5" 260 lb [without gear on] individual. It is a scenario set up for failure..
Now it was mentioned that people of equal size should pair up.. EXCELLENT idea if more than 6 people would ever show up at any given scene. that leaves the odds of the 2 big guys on the same team at the same time very slim.
anyway the whole moral of what i was getting at is that my station has an "every man for himself" mentality, that i really thing a "sit down meeting" would not fix.
I only posted the original message to see if anyone was in the same boat as me ever and what they ended up doing. I did not want to open up a big can o worms here, i was just hoping the more experienced of the group would be able to give a hand figuring out if this is a "personal safety" issue or not

[ThFyrWthn]

hey sdog, welcome to firehall.

EDIT: oops, we posted at the same time and I didn't see your latest(I'm not to quick with the two finger typeing thing). Most of my suggestions are void I guess.

here it is anyway,


I think the other guys said it better than I would about number 1 and 2. I can only add,

1) they're right, different personalities out there. I would be concerned about "backstabbing" like you. I find if you deal with people upfront and direct, one on one, you may find the root of the problem. Who knows, alot of the tension may be because others have the same concerns you have.

2) training, yup, get the training... can't say more than that.

3) I think DFCSmash nailed it with pairing up the big guys with the big guys. To be totally honest, I would be just as concerned as you are if I were in the same situation. Now me, I'm 5'9" and in decent shape so I could go either way(now, now, not THAT way :rolleyes: :D )

You said you are on the quiet side and non-political. This may be a situation where speaking up and as iamff said, being a leader would help. I'd be a shame if you just quit and leave the other guys wondering what the hell happened. I bet you would have others follow you as well... destroying the department, when a simple meeting of the minds could have done the trick.

my best to you,

[ThFyrWthn]

IMO, if things are not fixable, I'd say yes, you have a personal safety issue.

[FFWannabe]

Well, I'll address as much of this as I can from a more relationship, workplace personality issues stance. The advice from the others is amazing, of course.

First off... sometimes cliques and personality issues are more what you are perceiving, rather than what is actually happening. There's a quote, not sure who said it, "There's just something about him I don't like about me." In other words, we can be seeing things in others we aren't fond of in ourselves.. or we can be seeing things that don't exist or aren't as big an issue due to our own insecurities. please don't be offended, I"m not saying this is a critical way.. it can be on many different scales.

Training - Well, I haven't had the opportunity to be a volunteer, most people frown on a woman leaving her child(ren) home alone in the middle of the night... lol... but as far as any training goes, if you aren't following a standard procedure and learning what is necessary to be safe of the job, then you are all doing a disservice by being silent.. you may be endangering your lives. Sometimes getting your nose a little dirty and being a little political (in a politically correct way of course) isn't such a bad thing. Take it from someone who has a bad habit of championing the underdog... shit blows over and changes are made... even if someone else takes the glory for the changes and you take the shit for stirring it up, it makes no difference, as long as things get accomplished!

Well, the woman issue. If she is a fire fighter and she is true to her position, she not going to leave you and she is going to die trying (maybe a poor choice of words). I am not a tiny lady by any means and as a friend of mine with the FF here says, I could "take" half the new guys. Size is not always as much an issue as passion and desire to do the job. Adrenalin also plays a huge role. I have to say, if I was alone in a basement with a 6'3, 225 man and he went down, I wouldn't leave without him and I have no doubt that it might take me longer, but I am getting him out... he is not going to be cinder.

I think my main concern for you is this... when you are at a fire, are these issues clouding your mind? Are you trying to knock down a fire and all the while wondering what others are thinking and doing? (same with training, if you're seeing others giving looks etc, are you focused on your own task?) This alone is going to put you at risk. Our brains are complex, but they are not able to work as hard when emotion is clouding the job at hand. Have you ever played a sport, gotten pissed off and played worse? (sorry, psychology background).

Anyway.... open your mouth, say something, if your teammates do not know what they need to know to do the job and stay safe then I would think it's your duty to speak up. Speak to the instructor privately and go from there. You are likely not alone.

Take care and I hope this gets worked out. If you love this enough, are you really willing to quit?

Sue :)

[WFD999]

Hey sdog welcome. Lifes full of choices. There is three questions you can ask yourself. Do I have the dedication? Do I have the desire? And. Do I get fufilment out of being part of the organiztion? I think you probably answered the first two yes, by posting. As for number 3,__________________. As iamvff said if there is tension in the ranks thats a great place to take a leadership role in mending fences and createing a good "culture" with in your hall.

Maybe ask your trianing officer if you can teach a item or protocol on a trianing night and lead the evolution by example. You know how your trianing is done in house maybe try a differnt approach.

Our DC dosen't know jack about doing evolutions with medical coresponce but can IC the situation and do the logistics. Because he's trusting his people and there level of trianing to give proper care. Besides at his place or rank he dosent have to know how to apply a traction split or take vitals. His job is to make sure his people do.

As for the women on your crew I thought like you when the first one showed up. But I was proved wrong absoultley wrong. We had a girl that was 110 pounds soaking wet that could out work a guy your size. A stick of dynomite is real small considering how much punch it has.

Dont sweat the small stuff and make sure you have some fun.

[sdog]

thanks all for the constructive replies.
im fighting a losing battle in my head in regards to the "try to fix something that i think is unfixable VS. serious concern over my personal safety" issue.
Im still not sure which way i will go, and am having a VERY tough time making a decision.

[wilderness]

If the situation isn't safe you do have the right to refuse work
i can understand your concerns, but also on a fire scene say you are doing an interior attack, you are to have a RIT team, so if there is only six of you on scene you should be paging out another station.. and you could be RIT.......

[mutts252]

well i'll just toss in my 2 cents here...

the situation you're describing obviously doesn't sound like a pleasant one. any of the advice already given on here is really good in terms of approaching your training officer, etc. etc...

all i'll really say is this: if you're already considering quitting as a result of what's going on, it really can't hurt to stick your neck out a little bit and pipe up about things. as someone else already said, if you're already considering leaving, the worst thing tht can happen is some people's noses get a bit out of joint, nothing productive happens to rectify the situation, and you leave the department anyway. can't hurt.... can only help. worth a go.

good luck with it.