Expired PPE

[HightowerAcres]

What does a volunteer fire department have to do to convince a municipal council that 19 year old bunker suits need to be replaced.

I understand budgets are tight and the suits are a priority, however handing us a few new suits when several more are needed to ensure the safety of all the firefighters doesn't cut it.

Do we send them away for cleaning to never see them again? Do we call in mutual aid whenever there is a working fire as only a handful of our members can "safely" enter a burning structure? Is it a good or bad idea to get the ministry of labour involved?

Council keeps creaming to cut the budget, however is in not their ass on the line if something bad were to happen?

Has anyone dealt with this, or have any constructive suggestions to offer? We keep pushing and pushing only to have the chief tell us his hands are tied. Shouldn't firefighter safety be the top priority regardless of cost?

[itsnotahobby]

In all honesty call the ministry of Labour and tell them that you are being forced to work with unsafe equipment. It is up to you to take care of your own health and safety when your municipality obviously won't.

[Roadwarrior]

In all honesty call the ministry of Labour and tell them that you are being forced to work with unsafe equipment.

You don't know FOR SURE that it's unsafe until you send it in for testing. Then it's not just your word, it's proof.

[FLASHOVER05]

You don't know FOR SURE that it's unsafe until you send it in for testing. Then it's not just your word, it's proof.

Good Point Roadwarrior,

Proof is always in the pudding... In my area in particular Councils don't see the need to replace equipment, 25 year old front line pumps that do the job just fine, old belt mounted regulated SCBA's that we're obsolete 10 years ago! and Bib style bunker pants and long coats.

Let me add, anytime a council meeting involves fire department funding be there and show your support!

[3rdGen]

isn't there an NFPA standard for the age of turnout gear?
10 years?? plus annual inspections and a maintenace log to be kept
helmets expire every 5 i think...
don't have the standards here, but worth a look see
plus an inquiry to your provincial work safe/compensation board might help identify standards.

[KootenayKid]

NFPA does state recommended times for replacing gear and a regular inspection program but it is my understanding that municipalities are not bound by NFPA guidelines. That being said I would take serious issues with that. When I joined, my department had mostly old turnout gear and since we've been able to cycle new gear in. (I just had brand new ordered specifically for me rather than trying to fit was available). It is a safety issue and it should be brought up through the chain of command and health and safety committee. Make sure everything is documented so that IF something happens it is the councils lack of action to a legitimate issue that is to blame, not the FF for not bringing it up. I know it would be difficult to do but a new SOP stating that no offensive tactics take place until the department has new turnout gear might raise eyebrows.

[HightowerAcres]

Thanks guys, all good points. I know for a fact that our new bunker suits (the few that we have) have a shelf life of 10 years. It has also been documented all the way to the top ranks that our gear is out of date. Every single piece of PPE is on an inventory sheet with date of manufacture. Any of us with old gear will not be forced into dangerous situations, however that drastically decreases our man power. Just to give you all a better idea, the reflective material on these old suits no longer reflects at all. Even the simple task of traffic control requires additional reflective articles. (which isn't a bad idea anyways)

It may just take our whole department (all 16 of us) to show up at a council meeting with the threat of health and safety infractions to wake them up. I just wanted to explore different options and see if any of you have had similar issues and how you resolved them effectively.

[PFD023]

Thanks guys, all good points. I know for a fact that our new bunker suits (the few that we have) have a shelf life of 10 years. It has also been documented all the way to the top ranks that our gear is out of date. Every single piece of PPE is on an inventory sheet with date of manufacture. Any of us with old gear will not be forced into dangerous situations, however that drastically decreases our man power. Just to give you all a better idea, the reflective material on these old suits no longer reflects at all. Even the simple task of traffic control requires additional reflective articles. (which isn't a bad idea anyways)

It may just take our whole department (all 16 of us) to show up at a council meeting with the threat of health and safety infractions to wake them up. I just wanted to explore different options and see if any of you have had similar issues and how you resolved them effectively.

I wouldn't sit on this for very long.
Where are your officers on this?
If the Chief/Council won't act...then your supervisors should be doing something. Your employer must provide proper safety equipment....your supervisors must ensure its used correctly.....your officers have a vested interest in resolving this very quickly.
If they won't/don't I'd be making an a discrete phone call to your local MOL rep.
Good luck.

[dentedhead]

Being an H&S rep i see quite a few MOL reports it is totally acceptable to make anonymous complaints if you are concerned about fallout from the floor.Management cannot terminate or punish you for doing so.

Dentedhead

[Buckster]

Every years end when it comes time to use up whats left of our budget, PPE and safety equipment ALWAYS come first.......much to the dismay of some who want hats and t-shirts....as Roadwarrior said, send it out to be tested which will create a paper trail

[hmckay91]

In this health and safety craze, it is unfathomable that any public figure or manager could dismiss legitimate safety concerns.

Educate your councillors and managers on the situation and remind them of their liabilities (municipal and personal). Prepare a risk assessment of employing "unsuitable" bunker gear. Include a service level review of changes to operations due to the lack of PPE.

Prepare a capital replacement plan that addresses the situation for the future with economics that the municipality can afford and compare it with possible fines and expenses for insurance/Workman's comp/long term disability claims. (e.g. buy used serviceable gear to bridge the immediate gap and replace 4 sets every year for five years and keep on doing it.) Also highlight the obvious benefits to recruitment and retention!

NFPA Standards are only "law" when the municipality says that they will follow NFPA blah, blah, blah. They will assist you in determining the "best practises" and what you may need in a PPE Inspection Program. Fixed shelf life times are a little bogus (IMHO), it all comes down to use, care, and maintenance of the PPE. Properly cared for gear that is not used a whole lot could well last over 10 years, and the opposite is certainly true. Heavily used and improperly cared for gear could be worn out in 3 years. As other have said send it out for assessment to have your paper trail.

Resist as long as possible the big hammer of MOL and making "demands". Although it may work short term it will do nothing for the relationship long term and hamper any future dealings. Regardless of which direction you go do not expect he situation to be resolved overnight. Especially, if MOL is involved.

Check out Item #3 of the following report.
http://md.bonnyville.ab.ca/images/stories/special_notices/January_24_BRFA_reinspection_report.pdf

[HightowerAcres]

I wouldn't sit on this for very long.
Where are your officers on this?
If the Chief/Council won't act...then your supervisors should be doing something. Your employer must provide proper safety equipment....your supervisors must ensure its used correctly.....your officers have a vested interest in resolving this very quickly.
If they won't/don't I'd be making an a discrete phone call to your local MOL rep.
Good luck.

All the officers are steaming as well. The County chief is getting his butt hole enlarged by council trying to push a budget through. The only one preventing the purchase of new bunker suits for everyone who needs a new one is the Municipal Council. Our officers are all top notch!!!

[HightowerAcres]

Being an H&S rep i see quite a few MOL reports it is totally acceptable to make anonymous complaints if you are concerned about fallout from the floor.Management cannot terminate or punish you for doing so.

Dentedhead

Thanks. We still need to work on an official H&S designate, however With a new district chief who is working hard to correct all the issues in the past that were never even considered, we should be right and proper shortly.

[HightowerAcres]

send it out to be tested which will create a paper trail

If I had my way, I'd do that. Concrete proof to throw down on councils table.

[HightowerAcres]

In this health and safety craze, it is unfathomable that any public figure or manager could dismiss legitimate safety concerns.

Educate your councillors and managers on the situation and remind them of their liabilities (municipal and personal). Prepare a risk assessment of employing "unsuitable" bunker gear. Include a service level review of changes to operations due to the lack of PPE.

Prepare a capital replacement plan that addresses the situation for the future with economics that the municipality can afford and compare it with possible fines and expenses for insurance/Workman's comp/long term disability claims. (e.g. buy used serviceable gear to bridge the immediate gap and replace 4 sets every year for five years and keep on doing it.) Also highlight the obvious benefits to recruitment and retention!

NFPA Standards are only "law" when the municipality says that they will follow NFPA blah, blah, blah. They will assist you in determining the "best practises" and what you may need in a PPE Inspection Program. Fixed shelf life times are a little bogus (IMHO), it all comes down to use, care, and maintenance of the PPE. Properly cared for gear that is not used a whole lot could well last over 10 years, and the opposite is certainly true. Heavily used and improperly cared for gear could be worn out in 3 years. As other have said send it out for assessment to have your paper trail.

Resist as long as possible the big hammer of MOL and making "demands". Although it may work short term it will do nothing for the relationship long term and hamper any future dealings. Regardless of which direction you go do not expect he situation to be resolved overnight. Especially, if MOL is involved.

Check out Item #3 of the following report.
http://md.bonnyville.ab.ca/images/stories/special_notices/January_24_BRFA_reinspection_report.pdf

Well said!

[PFD023]

Well said!

some things you can spend the time trying to seek an amicable resolution.....other times you need the "hammer of the MOL".....you guys need to decide just how important having PPE which is both safe will do the job as intended......you may only get one chance.

[Scratch]

I have been voicing my opinion for years. No one will listen. I have even had my gear inspected at my own cost and was told it was no longer good. I brought the issue to my chief and city council. I was almost let go from my Department. They made it seem like I was causing trouble. Here I am worried about my well being and I get shit.

It all comes down to the all mighty dollar. Will it take my self or another fire fighter getting hurt for this to change?

[itsnotahobby]

I have been voicing my opinion for years. No one will listen. I have even had my gear inspected at my own cost and was told it was no longer good. I brought the issue to my chief and city council. I was almost let go from my Department. They made it seem like I was causing trouble. Here I am worried about my well being and I get shit.

It all comes down to the all mighty dollar. Will it take my self or another fire fighter getting hurt for this to change?

All it takes is one "anonymous" phone call to the Ministry of Labour with some details like this.

[Scratch]

All it takes is one "anonymous" phone call to the Ministry of Labour with some details like this.

Well under NFPA standards the gear has to be inspected and the state has to be documented every 6 months. Its also recomended that it be replaced every 10 years. I have gone through at least 4 sets of gear in the last 12 years. I recently got rid of gear that had a manufacture date of 1983.

[ABVOLFF]

Let the powers that be know about bill C-45. Nothing like letting those making the decisions aware that can be held criminally accountable for knowing letting unsafe conditions to occur.

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/legisl/billc45.html

[pompier5]

in our dept., we have a planned replacement program, where we buy 3 new bunkers per year, every year. it doesn't break the budget, and our bunker gear is used for about 10-15 years. When we started this, it was those firefighters who were most present and who were most likely to go do search and rescue who were on the top of the list, today, most of our 30 members have up to date gear, and our second hand stuff falls to the rookies who aren't allowed in the hot zone anyway... We have a good understanding with our town counsel, which helps alot, but we still must fight with them to get what we need. Maybe with a little dialogue and comprimise a similar solution could be useful...