portable radio use

[LtBlondie]

ok they've done it, sent down a standing order. to leave the hoseman's radio with the driver?! is this a H&S issue? uh ya, if you are the unlucky one without a radio you rely on your mandown alarm for the boys to come and get you..any thoughts?

[Red_Devil]

Blondie...believe it or not...this is typical common practice among some departments, not all members of a crew get a ready, usually there is only 2 portable radios on the truck, so you hope you stay close to the man or captain with the radio. I do think this is a H&S issue as if something gets relayed over the radio you better hope you catch what is being said.

[LtBlondie]

so true and rely on that mandown alarm to be heard.

[Red_Devil]

yup.....unfortunate isnt it

[firefighter26]

ok they've done it, sent down a standing order. to leave the hoseman's radio with the driver?! is this a H&S issue? uh ya, if you are the unlucky one without a radio you rely on your mandown alarm for the boys to come and get you..any thoughts?

I feel your pain and it doesn't really make any sense to me not to have a radio on the line.
How is the attack crew going to relay fire conditions?
How are they going to ask for ventilation?
How are they going to report they found someone and need help to bring them out?
How is command going to get a hold of them if an evacuation order is given?

If you have not already brought these points up you need to. I don't know about where you are, but I think it is a regulation here (WCB I think), that interior firefighters MUST be in contact with command via a radio while inside a structure. I will have to look it up for you, though if you are in a different province it doesn't really come into play (but it might help).

this is typical common practice among some departments

I guess I can feel good that our chief took the opposite approch (makes me wonder why it feels like the fire service sometimes takes to many steps backwards). He buys as many radios as he can. Prior to all our problems, the radios were:
1 for the Chief
1 for the Deputy
2 for the LTs (myself included)
1 on the engine
2 on the rescue
1 on the bush truck
1 spare in the radio room
5 on the radio shelf (next to the front doors for anyone to take while coming into the apparatus bays)

That's 14 radios... not bad when we only had 20-25 people in the department. In fact, at one point a few years ago the Chief was looking at replacing all the pagers with radios. I think Kenwood had a little radio that was pretty powerful and reliable that was, for a short time, nearly the same price as a Mintor III pager. Unfortunitly the deal never went through, but he used what money he did have for a few more HT1000's and recently three HT1250's.

[FireEMTGuy]

Yeah, it is common practice not to have every FF running around with a radio among larger city departments such as Edmonton or Calgary in Alberta. I am not 100% sure just who gets a radio but I don't believe they send any team inside without at least 1 radio, usually on an officer or seinor.

There could be many different reasons both from a FGC standpoint (too much radio traffic etc) to politicial (cost etc). I am not sure what their reasoning is when it comes down to it but whatever works.

[kriand]

Hey 26...
I think you misunderstood Blondie's post.
Every truck runs with a minimum of 4 men, (people, sorry blondie).
There are 3 radios assigned to each truck.
-Officer
-hydrant "person"
-hose"person"
there have been concerns that at certain calls the officer needs to talk to the driver, or for high rise calls etc, so the hosemans radio is now left with the driver.

Due to engine noise, setting up pylons, getting equipment etc. the driver is not always able to hear/ or stay by the pump panel.

Hope this clears up the confusion.

[firebabs222]

We are in the same situation, 3 radios. ! for the officer , one for the hydrant man, and one for the driver. Our driver keeps his headset on at a fire, unplugs it from the truck, takes his portable radio and plugs it into his headset then walaaa. He can hear what's going on and his ears stay nice and toasty.

[firefighter26]

Hope this clears up the confusion.

It does. You would think that the hydrany "person" would be able to give his radio to the driver after hooking all that up. Leave the nozzle"person" and officer with radios.

In our neck of the woods we have gotten pretty good at expressing what we want with hand signals, like charging lines, increase or decrease in pressure, venting, etc, etc. A radio would be better, but if hand signals is what it takes to give the attack teama radio, then do it! That interior teams needs a radio, regardless.

[kriand]

Hand signals work great...except when your not in the line of sight of the crew.
IE: highrise, underground parking , rear or side entries, or just the simple placement of the apparatus to the incident.
Also to be able to listen to updates and other fireground needs.
It would be even better if everyone had one , But then we work in the real world.

[firefighter26]

Hand signals work great...except when your not in the line of sight of the crew.

I totally agree and I also believe it would be great to give a radio to everyone on the fire ground, but, like you said, real world physics rarely work.

If there are three radios on the truck
1 for the officer
1 for the attack team
1 for the hydrant

When it comes down to it, the attack team needs the radio and command needs a radio. If the engineer has one, great, if the hydrant man has one, great. But couldn't they share rather than taking a vital piece of equipment from the attack team?

[LtBlondie]

I won't give mine up without a fight!!and I can be pretty fierce!!oh, neither should you..

[bcfire]

ok they've done it, sent down a standing order. to leave the hoseman's radio with the driver?! is this a H&S issue? uh ya, if you are the unlucky one without a radio you rely on your mandown alarm for the boys to come and get you..any thoughts?
You can get a water-proof speaker and external mike plug-in at your pump panel.We have this feature on both pumps and our snuffer rig. The op is in the loop with-out sacrificing a portable. The nozzle guys should never be out of touch, after all, they are at the sharp end of the stick! Take care, BCFIRE

[ABFF37]

Yeah, it is common practice not to have every FF running around with a radio among larger city departments such as Edmonton or Calgary in Alberta. I am not 100% sure just who gets a radio but I don't believe they send any team inside without at least 1 radio, usually on an officer or seinor.

There could be many different reasons both from a FGC standpoint (too much radio traffic etc) to politicial (cost etc). I am not sure what their reasoning is when it comes down to it but whatever works.

Sorry to dig up an old post, I just came across this thread tonight. I wanted to set the record straight as far as Calgary goes, we do have a radio for EVERY firefighter with no exceptions.

Pumps will have 4 radios (driver, senior man, hydrant man, captain) Rescues, Hazmats and Aerials etc. will have 2 radios (driver, lieutenant), and all support apparatus, even deliery trucks and personnel shuttles for the department will have a portable radio for the operator. In short, no one is on duty in Calgary without a radio.

The chief's vans also carry spare radios, and in the event that there is an extra firefighter on a rig, a radio is available for them.

I think it's critical that everyone has a radio. It's for their own protection as far as having the man down alarm, as well as for being able to hear any recall or evacuation orders. That's just the tip of the ice berg, but in my humble opinion, radios are necessities that are fundemental to any firefighting or rescue situation.

AB

[Firefighter1680]

Up until last year we only had 2 radios per engine, rescue and one on a ladder (only 2 ff on a ladder).. We I guess recieved some federal money and we now all have a radio. Before though the branchman or runner, hoseman whatever didnt have one he/she is suppsoe to be with the capt who does..Not out of the ordinary..

[t_lag]

Can any of you guys go into detail about the types of hand signals you have been using in the past. I have a friend who is on a small vol. dept. and asked me if i knew of any hand signals that they can use when they don't have access to a radio.

Thanks guys

[Ruckus]

We have 4 portables in Engine #1, 4 for Engine #2, plus mobiles built into each truck.

Any team (usually 2 ff's) in the hotzone needs a radio, next in team (usually 2) gets a radio, IC gets a radio, Engine operators use mobile radios in engine.

If the situation calls for it, water supply (eg hydrant, portable pump or tanker drivers) get radios.

For some reason we always have spare radios (eg some people aren't taking theirs).

[bestcoast]

Every FF on duty in Vancouver has a portable radio.............................BC.............. ..............

[fireice]

I was going to ask about this hydrant dude with a radio. Our hydrant guy basically is only waiting for the "open" hand signal (hand up with index finger up spinning) to open supply to our high-vol, and then he comes back to the scene for a different job. We set up our hydrants with a gated valve on a 65 port while we connect the pump to the steamer -- that way if we need another connection, we don't have to shut off the hydrant.

Our only other "hydrant man" signal is "close" -- hand down with index finger down spinning. (Notice I mention the "index finger" for all the wise-acres in the house . . .)

I thought I'd throw a new tangent in this thread for fun: What's your department's SOP/SOG for using radios in a possibly volatile environment? Our radios are not certified "intrinsically safe" and so during a hazmat training session, the training officers said to stay off the radio when in an unknown (possibly volatile) environment. I disagreed (and got the usual "are you Martian?" looks around the room). My reason is that while it has not been certified, today's radio technology is now solid-state with low voltage requirements. Further to my argument is the fact that the cheapest, most ubiquitous radio device on the planet -- the cellphone -- has yet to cause an accidental ignition of volatile vapours. If you research it carefully, not a single, truly confirmed and documented case has happened, even though lawyers plastered all gas stations with "no cellphone" signs. Americans fuel their vehicles hundreds of millions of times per year with hundreds of millions of cellphones, and not one confirmed case of cellphone ignition (although there are many "static electricity" cases). I think MythBusters even tried and failed!

In terms of risk, I am much more worried about everyone on the ground not knowing what is going on rather than the risk of inadvertent ignition. Therefore my vote goes to using radio.

For the record, none of our interior teams go in without a radio. I agree with Blondie -- that is nuts to not have a radio for the guys on the inside (but the dork safely standing well back at the hydrant gets one!).

FireIce is 10-19 . . .

[OzFire]

My appliances carries a minimum of 6 "Fireground" radios.

The normal break down is:

Structure fires

OIC x1
Pump operator / Driver X1
BA Team X2 = 1 each
BA Control X 1
1x spare for a runner

MVA
OIC x1
Pump operator / Driver x1
Hoseman x1
Traffic control x2 ( When required )
1x Spare for runner

It is common practice to have the FF's in the hot zone issued a radio.

In addition to this the OIC has an additional portable radio on the main fire channel to converse with the control center. As per ICS principals.

I would not send any one in to a hot zone with out communications, I feel that I would be breaching my "Duty of Care" towards the FF. Too me it would be like sending them in with out the proper PPE.

[ABFF37]

I was going to ask about this hydrant dude with a radio. Our hydrant guy basically is only waiting for the "open" hand signal (hand up with index finger up spinning) to open supply to our high-vol, and then he comes back to the scene for a different job. We set up our hydrants with a gated valve on a 65 port while we connect the pump to the steamer -- that way if we need another connection, we don't have to shut off the hydrant.

Our only other "hydrant man" signal is "close" -- hand down with index finger down spinning. (Notice I mention the "index finger" for all the wise-acres in the house . . .)

...that is nuts to not have a radio for the guys on the inside (but the dork safely standing well back at the hydrant gets one!).



Well that's all well and fine, but what about the situation where the hose lay for your supply is around the corner and half a block down an alley with a gradual bend in it? I've made hydrants at fires before where the pump has done just that, gone up the street, around the corner into an alley, and then around the bend. Good luck looking for the "open" hand signal...you're not going to see it. I can think of several situations in residential communities or downtown where I would have had to run halfway back to the rig to see the signal. And then of course I'd have to run back...that wastes an awful lot of time if the pump operator is getting close to the end of his tank!

We run 10 lengths of 30 metre 125mm High Vol supply on our pumpers, plus a 15 metre 125mm pony length. That makes for a total possible lay of 315m (1033 feet). Our hydrants are spaced just under 1000 feet apart in residential and low density areas, and 500 feet apart in high density residential, commercial, or any industrial. It is not inconceivable to have a hose lay of close to 1000 feet...so with any kind of a corner or bend thrown into that mix...well, you've got an awful long way to run to see that hand signal.

Furtermore, this places the hydrant man way back of the actual scene. He or she may therefore not be aware of changes to fire conditions, tactics, and any other number of important information from fireground command. Radios belong with ALL firefighters on a fire scene, regardless of how "safe" their position may be. Hand signals work great, but there is plenty of justification for having a radio for the hydrant man! Just some of my thoughts...

AB

[North_of_60]

I think it's critical that everyone has a radio. It's for their own protection as far as having the man down alarm, as well as for being able to hear any recall or evacuation orders. That's just the tip of the ice berg, but in my humble opinion, radios are necessities that are fundemental to any firefighting or rescue situation.

AB

I agree that in a perfect world every Firefighter would have a radio. And I agree that they are a necessity and that any attack team should have at least one radio.
One of the things that a couple of Volly Departments do is to keep thier pagers with them. Most of the Fire Pagers out there allow you to listen to all of the radio communications. This allows all of the firefighters to be able to hear any critical orders (like evacuation, Man Down etc.). This is not a repacement for radios but it is a solution that works if radios are in short supply. However, any team that enters a structure is required to have a radio in all of the Departments that I have been associated with.

Stay Safe,

North of 60

[smoke286]

I'm wondering why the driver would require a radio, all our pump panels are equiped with headsets for the operator.

That being said, we only issue two portables per pumper. I hate carrying the radio myself, its just something else to have to do.

[Leafs Fan]

Presently our dept is operating on an anolog radio system. All 14 guys on duty have their own radio. It may or may not work when needed :( . Next month our dept is moving to a new 2 million dollar digital radio system. Every firefighter is being issued their own personal digital radio. These will help us be heard when needed hopefully. The radios are expected to be taken home with us when off duty. When there is a call-back of off-duty firefighters for station backfill or general alarm there is a button that we must press, it lights up on a screen at dispatch and tells them how many off-duty firefighters are on the way. Sounds good, my only problem is who is responsible if I loose this expensive radio, or my kids get a hold of it and start playing :o .

[ve2vfd]

Montreal FD SOP mandates that every FF inside the perimeter at a scene MUST have a working radio.

This is the result of the Coroners report blaming the death of a firefighter partly on the lack of communications with that FF when he died under a wall collapse many years ago.

So now basically everyone on shift has a radio (yes even the drivers have one!)

Pat

[fire16]

All our ff''s have a radio. so do each of the apparatus. There might be a pro/con thing to every ff having a radio though. IC may be trying to get an update from sector A , while the guys in sector C are conversing, . It can be a challlenge to decipher ops vs safety, if , as in our case, all 16 radios are on the same freq. This lends to a lot of walking over each other.

[SMOKEnPipes]

I know the post is old, and thegeneral question is In MY department we have 4 people riding and 4 radios, even the pump operator,and its important That our Battalions actually are assigned two portables,and his aide also has a radio. seems like over kill, at times, But he has two so that He can have one set on primary dispatch freq and ione set on the fireground Freq or freq(s)... One thing besides the obvious thing brought up, as far as getting water and squaring away with the Pump Op often the 1st due Engine mayfind themselves in command the officer often is expected to give his report on the primary dispatch freq while fireground ops go on, on a fire ground freq Or3rd if there are other incidents citywide, if the company officer ends up with an "official Command" then things can get fairly complex with span of control issues with his attack crew, being most affected. We have two Battalions so any 3rd incident situation would require afterhours callback of the call deputy, so one could be "stuck with it for a while" in this situation, another ill affect is we have limited "other frequencies " so there will be traffic from "other incidents as well," So the least experianced (lowest/ Last) ends up with the least worst case senerio all around, so to speak..
Obviously, being an incident commander, in this senerio leaves you with less of everything all around and the attack crew technically can't begin an aggressive interior attack until asecond crew can arrive (2 in 2 out) Though this usually is the least of the problem just another aspect thatcan get complex in your larger urban situations, the problems have to be overcome just as youfolks in rural areas have your things to deal with...when I was starting out back before we even had portables (LOL) when the Pump op was ready 4 water from the hydrant, we would Toot the airhorn 3 shorts for Engine 3 , 2 for engine 2 etc.. or.... once layed out the operator would clamp the supply lines, if anything was showing and the plugman would dress and charge it himself, the pump op, could set up tank and set up his supply lines at his leisure.... Chances are The pump op isnt going to be needing The mayday or "panic" button, we would hope :) althoughIn parts of my districtone never knows ...lol

[medic319]

In our department, each guy (or lady) has a radio given to them in the morning at shift change, and there are two radios on the engine. This is done so we have the safety of each person having a radio. I do like this system, but there are plenty of guys that we have to tell "Do not talk on this unless you are dying!" There are a few guys that talk so much on the radio that anybody in trouble could not be heard anyway.
(http://www.shamrockgear.org)

[mutts252]

There are a few guys that talk so much on the radio that anybody in trouble could not be heard anyway.

some people just like hearing themselves talk a little too much... i've heard it's also linked to wearing a white hat :p haha

my dept. is vastly underequipped when it comes to radios... our captains and chief each have one (total about 4 there), and there are a couple on the trucks, as well. ... we should have one for each person on a call. on the plus side, they just upgraded the radios... our new ones actually work and hold a charge! (old ones would die after about 5 minutes... very useful!)

[XXXXX]

Not every member should have a radio, but there should be one radio per team...including fire attack.

[Hacienda216]

Not every member should have a radio, but there should be one radio per team...including fire attack.

What would be the reason not to have every member equiped with a radio?

[PFD023]

What would be the reason not to have every member equiped with a radio?

Keeps radio chatter down.....those dang maydays can really be annoying after awhile. This way the RIT has much better odds at being able to lean against the front bumper for the complete call.....nothing worse than having to get up just when you are starting to feel all comfy......plus I hate when my legs fall asleep and I'm asked to start workin.

[Leafs Fan]

Not every member should have a radio, but there should be one radio per team...including fire attack.

completely disagree, as long as you have good radio discipline (ie, dont talk to hear yourself) there should not be a lot of chatter. the ability to call for help if something serious happens is too great an advantage to not equip as many firefighters as possible with a radio. If the member of an attack team with a radio goes through a floor, or a radio conks out on the 12th floor it is good to have the guy beside you with a backup.

[irsqyu]

Not every member should have a radio, but there should be one radio per team...including fire attack.


Having a personal radio for each crew member has become or will soon be the norm for almost all career departments. I realize there may be more volunteers than radios, but at least every member in the "Hot" zone should have one.


If only one member of a team has one, what would happen if they became separated (many reasons, one fell through floor, debris fell between them)?

[Hacienda216]

Keeps radio chatter down.....those dang maydays can really be annoying after awhile. This way the RIT has much better odds at being able to lean against the front bumper for the complete call.....nothing worse than having to get up just when you are starting to feel all comfy......plus I hate when my legs fall asleep and I'm asked to start workin.

Naaaaaaah, what are the odds of having to call a mayday vs the odds that some meat head will say something stoooopid on the radio? The risk for numb-skullary is too great. I say one radio for IC, and thats it. Cup and string or smoke signals for everyone else. Example - the smoke coming off my burning head is the International Smoke Signal standard for "Mayday". Keep It Simpull Stoopid!

[ve2vfd]

Not every member should have a radio, but there should be one radio per team...including fire attack.

The Coroners office and the Workers Safety Board strongly disagree with you...

Pat

[PFD023]

...... I say one radio for IC, and thats it. Cup and string or smoke signals for everyone else. ...

I like your thinking......kinda like "if a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound".....very interesting.

[irsqyu]

I like your thinking......kinda like "if a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound".....very interesting.

Especially if it lands on Deevo;)

[nocomment]

Not every member should have a radio, but there should be one radio per team...including fire attack.
Why Not? On my job everyone has one.

[intricate]

Officer should have one.

Crew should have one.

Operator should have one.

[XXXXX]

What would be the reason not to have every member equiped with a radio?
Feedback, cost, duplication of transmissions, distraction, freelancing, among others. It is a bigger hazard when command/dispatch cannot properly hear and identify transmissions.

completely disagree, as long as you have good radio discipline (ie, dont talk to hear yourself) there should not be a lot of chatter ... If a radio conks out on the 12th floor it is good to have the guy beside you with a backup.
By that logic, every member should have two radios: a regular one, and a backup one.

Where does it stop?

Having a personal radio for each crew member has become or will soon be the norm for almost all career departments ... what would happen if they became separated?
Disagree. Many large departments still issue one per crew. If they become separated, the member with the radio transmits a mayday. One member should be in charge of the radio.

The Coroners office and the Workers Safety Board strongly disagree with you...
The Coroner's office and WSIB knows whats best for firefighters like politicians know what's best for the average Joe.

Clearly they are not the ones trying to streamline radio transmissions and make them more effective.

Why Not? On my job everyone has one.
Chatter, Feedback, confusion, duplication of transmissions/efforts, freelancing.




When a fire attack crew enters the building, they are ONE UNIT. There should be one radio per unit to make radio use most effective. Otherwise, you get multiple people transmitting (with feedback, extra noise) from the same unit.

It comes down to span of control and accountability.


"Fire attack this is Command"

"SQUELLCCHHAEWWWZZZEWQWWWWAAAAAZZZEEEEEE"

"SQQUEEEEELLCH"

"[no, turn your radio down... it's interfering] GO ahead command this is fire attack"




Hearing transmissions the FIRST TIME and reducing the chance of feedback/multiple people trying to talk on the air at the same time, etc, is very important to operate as a well-tuned and -oiled machine.

The argument that not all members can hear the radio for important message is bogus. You should never become separated from your partner, and the radio should be turned up high enough for all members to hear anyway.

You shouldn't be so far that you can't hear your partner, let alone the radio.

[XXXXX]

Presently our dept is operating on an anolog radio system ... Next month our dept is moving to a new 2 million dollar digital radio system.

You should tell your department that digital radios are NOT suitable for the fire service. Do some research on it; you'll see.

Digital radios: either work, or they don't. No in the middle. If the signal isn't strong enough, the radio simply won't make a sound. No muffled voices calling a mayday.

Analog radios: Penetrate walls/buildings much better, and allow a lot of middle ground where there signals are weak. You will experience STATIC, but still muffled voices.

THAT is a bigger concern than every firefighter getting a radio.

What the city SHOULD have done, is invested in more POWERFUL analog radios, instead of switching to digital.


http://www.iafc.org/displayindustryarticle.cfm?articlenbr=33118

http://blog.tcomeng.com/index.php/2007/phoenix-fire-report-on-digital-trunked-radio/

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/Voice_Radio_Communications_Guide_for_the_Fire_Serv ice.pdf

http://www.fireengineering.com/index/articles/display.articles.fire-engineering.volume-154.issue-11.departments.roundtable.digital-vs-analog-radio-systems.html


Digital radios: they work, and then they don't.

Analog radios: they work, they fade with static but still some voice, they fade more, and more, and then they don't.

[Leafs Fan]

You should tell your department that digital radios are NOT suitable for the fire service. Do some research on it; you'll see.

Digital radios: either work, or they don't. No in the middle. If the signal isn't strong enough, the radio simply won't make a sound. No muffled voices calling a mayday.

Analog radios: Penetrate walls/buildings much better, and allow a lot of middle ground where there signals are weak. You will experience STATIC, but still muffled voices.

THAT is a bigger concern than every firefighter getting a radio.

What the city SHOULD have done, is invested in more POWERFUL analog radios, instead of switching to digital.


http://www.iafc.org/displayindustryarticle.cfm?articlenbr=33118

http://blog.tcomeng.com/index.php/2007/phoenix-fire-report-on-digital-trunked-radio/

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/Voice_Radio_Communications_Guide_for_the_Fire_Serv ice.pdf

http://www.fireengineering.com/index/articles/display.articles.fire-engineering.volume-154.issue-11.departments.roundtable.digital-vs-analog-radio-systems.html


Digital radios: they work, and then they don't.

Analog radios: they work, they fade with static but still some voice, they fade more, and more, and then they don't.



million dollar decisions on what or what our dept gets for equipment is far far above my pay grade. I don't know if what you are saying is true or not, but having used the digital system for a couple of years now, i have to say there is a lot better reception , but you may be right about "they either work or they don't". there are a few spots where dead zones have been found, specifically basement of hospital. We have found that switching to the talk around channel allows some communication.
I still disagree about everyone having radios. You can "what if" every situation to death, but i think everyone on scene having a radio is still safer than half the people on scene. What about man down alarms , under your logic a team going in should only have 1 man down alarm between them. If your dept can afford radios for all on duty all the better to my thinking.
Just a question, how long have you been a firefighter? I like to understand the experience level of a firefighter when i am discussing topics like this.

[FiremanLGT]

Officer should have one.

Crew should have one.

Operator should have one.

If a crew member is a telepath or owns a whisper 2000 ;) Then one handset will suffice

[kriand]

Wha if your crew is split in 2 to do 2 tasks, or check 2 different areas ???

[GHFD16]

Or what if your department just doesn't have enough radios?
Lets say 1 for each officer(3), and 3 for the rest of the fire ground/scene, sometimes its enough.
The problem starts with all the variables at different scenes, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and usually the budget is the decider.

[KootenayKid]

if thats the case and its all a budget thing, I'd be tempted to refuse to enter a structure as it is unsafe to do so and I have a right to refuse unsafe work. A radio is a lifeline and safety should not be compromised. In my opinion, all members should have a radio and one member of the team (the officer for want of a better term) is designated as the radio guy

[intricate]

I'd be tempted to refuse to enter a structure as it is unsafe to do so and I have a right to refuse unsafe work.

I don't know where you are a firefighter, but in Ontario, firefighters do not have the right to refuse unsafe work.

[KootenayKid]

I'm a volunteer in BC and the job has enough inherent dangers that we should be trying to limit and control as many variables as we can. Its called risk management and mitigation. We also do not enter or do searches without a charged line which is common practice still in some jurisdictions. I believe its best to take out as many variables as you can to make the job as safe as possible. You accept a certain level of risk being a firefighter but that doesnt mean you throw safe work practices out the window.

[CKL958]

I don't know where you are a firefighter, but in Ontario, firefighters do not have the right to refuse unsafe work.

I realize under 43.2 of the OHSA firefighters do not have the right to refuse unsafe work that is normal to their position.

That said, looking into Section 21 guidance notes (Contravention of which can result in charges from the Ministry of Labour, I read:

"Firefighters should have a method of two way communication that provides contact with
the Officer in Charge and with firefighters located outside the hazard zone....."

So, if I can't contact those outside the hot zone if separated from other members of my crew, I am in contravention of this, and can be charged. Within reason, I will take my chances with the OHSA.

Of course, there are always extenuating circumstances, and I'm sure everyone can post a "what if." Really, being provided the necessary equipment to do a job safely is something that employees can expect under OHSA.

[guitarmedic87]

I don't know where you are a firefighter, but in Ontario, firefighters do not have the right to refuse unsafe work.

From my understanding firefighters in Ontario do have the right to refuse unsafe work, providing that their refusal does not directly endanger the life, health or safety of another person. For example, if your captain orders you to use an unsafe ladder during a training excersise, you have every right to refuse that work. However if you are ordered to conduct a primary search of a structure with people trapped, I dont think you can legally refuse. Thats the understanding I have after taking the Leg 101 course though the OFC a few months back, but maybe I misunderstood.

[Hacienda216]

Just like "You should never become separated from your partner, and the radio should be turned up high enough for all members to hear anyway", you should never get yourself into a situation you can't get YOURSELF out of. So while we're rationing radios on the fireground, we should quit wasting time, money and manpower on these new-fangled RIT teams. They're a gimmick if you ask me.


Everyone puts on their PPE, everyone gets a radio, everyone does their fucking job.

[Pike]

ya....and do PO's really need bullet proof vests?.....could save a lot of money by telling them ...."don't get shot"

PIKE

[SmokeandFire911]

Just like "You should never become separated from your partner, and the radio should be turned up high enough for all members to hear anyway", you should never get yourself into a situation you can't get YOURSELF out of. So while we're rationing radios on the fireground, we should quit wasting time, money and manpower on these new-fangled RIT teams. They're a gimmick if you ask me.


Everyone puts on their PPE, everyone gets a radio, everyone does their fucking job.

I know that this is an old post.BUT HOLLY CRAP!............

I am seeing an internet reincarnation of some of the attitude and ignorance that plagues sooooo many Fire Depart's and their members............

Saving YOUR life or the life of another Firefighter is a GIMMICK?............IGNORANT....do the reading, look at the studies.......a typical Volly ( poc) Dept. on scene of a single family dwelling fire COULDN'T "rescue" one and certainly not two trapped, injured firefighers WITHOUT STOPPING all other operations........further risking injury or incident to those hurt AND those trying to "rescue" them..........

Simply putting on PPE and having a radio DOESN'T even come close to being enough to protect FF's........It sure is a first step........but thats it..........

what about REAL TRAINING?....you know the stuff the OFM DOESN'T TEACH!......like how to REALLY fight a fire..how to read the smoke conditions, to perform immediate and addiquate ventilation and NOT kill your crews with this PPA crap.....how to FOLLOW ORDERS.....

as for NOT getting yourself into situations......they happen all the time...wiether you want them or not.........BUT training and knowledge of HOW and WHAT to avoid is simply PRICELESS.........

I;m kinda afraid that your attitude and "Go to work" mentality WILL get yourself or others around you hurt or killed........

If your NOT part of the solution, your part of the problem".........

But YOU would always drag a fully charged 1 1/2 " line while you do a Primary Search too, right?.......But HOW could you work a hose line, AND drag a victim all at the same time?......

How often do YOU communicate your actions to the IC?...how about to the Vent crews to let them know when your ready to go.......your locations, obsticals etc?......how often are you and your crews entering a structure to "ATTACK the fire...( you know the "Cool job") WITHOUT proper ventilation?......what about that primary search?....bet 8 times outa 10.water is being "sparyed" with out ANY of that being accomplished........why would I say that.....cause I SEE IT all The TIME!................

Wanna be a hero?....go join the Military and fight oversees!........wanna be a Firefighter...then LEARN, ADAPT and PROGRESS.....become a REAL FIREFIGHTER....not some partially trained, bunker gear wearing, "fire movie" watching wannabe hero.......

so tired of hearing comments like this one above..IGNORANCE KILLS, COMPLACENCY KILLS....get real........WHAST IS YOUR LIFE worth to YOUR Family?..........

[Hacienda216]

I know that this is an old post.BUT HOLLY CRAP!............

I am seeing an internet reincarnation of some of the attitude and ignorance that plagues sooooo many Fire Depart's and their members............

Saving YOUR life or the life of another Firefighter is a GIMMICK?............IGNORANT....do the reading, look at the studies.......a typical Volly ( poc) Dept. on scene of a single family dwelling fire COULDN'T "rescue" one and certainly not two trapped, injured firefighers WITHOUT STOPPING all other operations........further risking injury or incident to those hurt AND those trying to "rescue" them..........

Simply putting on PPE and having a radio DOESN'T even come close to being enough to protect FF's........It sure is a first step........but thats it..........

what about REAL TRAINING?....you know the stuff the OFM DOESN'T TEACH!......like how to REALLY fight a fire..how to read the smoke conditions, to perform immediate and addiquate ventilation and NOT kill your crews with this PPA crap.....how to FOLLOW ORDERS.....

as for NOT getting yourself into situations......they happen all the time...wiether you want them or not.........BUT training and knowledge of HOW and WHAT to avoid is simply PRICELESS.........

I;m kinda afraid that your attitude and "Go to work" mentality WILL get yourself or others around you hurt or killed........

If your NOT part of the solution, your part of the problem".........

But YOU would always drag a fully charged 1 1/2 " line while you do a Primary Search too, right?.......But HOW could you work a hose line, AND drag a victim all at the same time?......

How often do YOU communicate your actions to the IC?...how about to the Vent crews to let them know when your ready to go.......your locations, obsticals etc?......how often are you and your crews entering a structure to "ATTACK the fire...( you know the "Cool job") WITHOUT proper ventilation?......what about that primary search?....bet 8 times outa 10.water is being "sparyed" with out ANY of that being accomplished........why would I say that.....cause I SEE IT all The TIME!................

Wanna be a hero?....go join the Military and fight oversees!........wanna be a Firefighter...then LEARN, ADAPT and PROGRESS.....become a REAL FIREFIGHTER....not some partially trained, bunker gear wearing, "fire movie" watching wannabe hero.......

so tired of hearing comments like this one above..IGNORANCE KILLS, COMPLACENCY KILLS....get real........WHAST IS YOUR LIFE worth to YOUR Family?..........

SmokeandFire, you can't be serious? Did you think Pike was being serious when he said cops don't need body armour too? Reread my post but this time add a little more of a sacrastic tone to the statement I made about RIT teams. I was trying to make a point that if your department is crazy enough to think they only need to buy a couple radios because, as a previous member suggested "You should never become separated from your partner anyways", then you might as well throw all common sense and fire ground safety out the window and free up those RIT teams so they can go do some freelanced ventilation or something crazy like that. I subscribe to the theory that the combat ready firefighter goes to work with all their PPE on, always grabs a tool, and always carries a radio; these are basic things that should be expected of every firefighter. So when I say "Just do your f*cking job", I'm saying train, evolve, know your job, expect fire, wear all your gear, and absolutely part of that job is to know what it means to be a highly effective, proactive RIT team. While your cap locks button seems to be malfunctioning, I do appriciate your obvious passion for the topic.