Who are the PROFESSIONALS

[firefighter9calt]

Hey Red Devil we are all professionals just some get paid more than others.

[Red_Devil]

According to MSN Encarta Dictionary

2. following occupation as paid job: engaged in an occupation as a paid job rather than as a hobby

[JGallagher]

Originally posted by firefighter9calt
Hey Red Devil we are all professionals just some get paid more than others.


Burn to the Devil. Point match firefighter9calt.

[wilderness]

THE SCORE IS TIED DEVIL 1 JG 1

[JGallagher]

Originally posted by wilderness
THE SCORE IS TIED DEVIL 1 JG 1

Well at least I know my place around here!! So that is why I am not going to take this any further. Its no use getting into a pissing match with him. He is not worth my time.

[Red_Devil]

LOL, JG...what the heck are you talking about dude?

[colin911]

I'm with Red on this one ... professional means you do it as a PROFESSION. If you work as a computer programmer, that is your profession. Not volunteer.

[wilderness]

Lets make the fulltimers feel better about themselves after all we are only "PROFESSIONAL VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS" lmao
the only diffrence between you and i red devil is the paycheck at the end of the day.... if you and i have accomplished something good for the day, and can contribute to someone in need, we are proud to call ourselves a firefighters. JG you let things rattle your chain way to easy, RD IS THE CHATROOM BULLIE.. SO YOU TAKE HIM WITH A GRAIN OF SALT, and don't give him ammunition to shoot back at you with........RD behave or we will take away your firetruck.... or make you stand in a corner

[bestcoast]

Wilderness, don't need anyone to "make me feel better about myself".... thanks anyway...:rolleyes: ...BC....

[JGallagher]

Here is what I have to say!!


http://www.scrolllock.nl/3.cfm

[colin911]

As BC said, I don't need you to make me feel better, I'm feeling pretty comfortable with where I'm coming from. I was simply pointing out that it's an oxymoron to call yourself a Professional Volunteer. You may act professional at calls, but you certainly are not professional in the true meaning of the word. If I volunteer at Big Brothers (which I do), I don't call myself a professional Big Brother. I don't want to get the impression that I don't respect what volunteers represent, I fully respect what you do.

[wilderness]

Originally posted by bestcoast
Wilderness, don't need anyone to "make me feel better about myself".... thanks anyway...:rolleyes: ...BC....
Now listen you behave..or we will take your U2 TICKETS AWAY...
listen we are all professionals one way or the other look at red devil he is a profesional pain in the (*) to JD now according to the OFM we are just as much of professionals as fulltimers... thats only my opion and what he has said... and i have said my peace..... so i will quit talking and go to my corner and coward, like any good vollie would....lmao

[bestcoast]

Originally posted by wilderness
Now listen you behave..or we will take your U2 TICKETS AWAY...
listen we are all professionals one way or the other look at red devil he is a profesional pain in the (*) to JD now according to the OFM we are just as much of professionals as fulltimers... thats only my opion and what he has said... and i have said my peace..... so i will quit talking and go to my corner and coward, like any good vollie would....lmao

I think this is a little silly here. Of course Volunteer firefighters are every bit as Professional as Professional Firefighters at incident's. All colin911 is saying is that Professional Firefighters are called that because it is our primary source of income and it is our JOB. Like i've stated before, anyone that goes into a burning building has my respect.......Volunteer of Career.......and my U2 tickets are hidden in a top secret location..;) .....BC.....

[Red_Devil]

I use the word professional in describing my job because fulltimers conform to lot of technical and ethical standards that some volunteer depts dont follow, such as medical and phyiscal requirements.

[wilderness]

can we have a group hug now........

[DFCSmash]

Originally posted by colin911
[B] You may act professional at calls, but you certainly are not professional in the true meaning of the word. /B]

I thank you for the rest of your post as well, but this is the part I was having trouble with.

pro·fes·sion·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.

Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n.
A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
A skilled practitioner; an expert.

I would say that the vast majority of firefighters meet one or more of the defintions above, either adjective or noun.

Therefore, the job title of professional may be earned by any firefighter. The more correct distinction then would be career or volunteer. Rather than pro or amateur. It's all semantics anyway. If we all burn with the same intensity for the vocation, then we all work for the same objectives. For the record, we all train toward the same NFPA standards. Those that don't are not professionals. Thats how I see it.

I am not as skilled as some here, and more skilled than others. Unless I am prepared to take the knowledge offered by others more skilled than I am and use it, and further prepared to pass along my knowledge to those less skilled than I am for their use, then I am not being a professional.

If I use my knowledge to belittle others who may know less, rather than helping their education, then I am not a professional.

That's how I see it. Damn, this is getting heavy for the Jokes thread. :D

[iamvff]

Originally posted by DFCSmash
I thank you for the rest of your post as well, but this is the part I was having trouble with.

pro·fes·sion·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.

Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n.
A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
A skilled practitioner; an expert.

I would say that the vast majority of firefighters meet one or more of the defintions above, either adjective or noun.

Therefore, the job title of professional may be earned by any firefighter. The more correct distinction then would be career or volunteer. Rather than pro or amateur. It's all semantics anyway. If we all burn with the same intensity for the vocation, then we all work for the same objectives. For the record, we all train toward the same NFPA standards. Those that don't are not professionals. Thats how I see it.

I am not as skilled as some here, and more skilled than others. Unless I am prepared to take the knowledge offered by others more skilled than I am and use it, and further prepared to pass along my knowledge to those less skilled than I am for their use, then I am not being a professional.

If I use my knowledge to belittle others who may know less, rather than helping their education, then I am not a professional.

That's how I see it. Damn, this is getting heavy for the Jokes thread. :D

I'll second that post, thanks DFC

be safe
iamvff

[FFWannabe]

WOW!!! DFC, I just have to say, you are very well spoken.. that was a great post!!!

And JG, that was the first time I saw that link to the Chill out dude... hahaa.. that was hilarious!!!

Sue :)

[bestcoast]

Guess we'd better change the Brithish Columbia Professional Firefighters Association to the British Columbia Career Firefighters Association...thats alot of letter heads to change....:D ....BC...

[DFCSmash]

:D :D

No need to change the name, career firefighters can be professionals too. :D ;)

[bestcoast]

Originally posted by DFCSmash
:D :D

No need to change the name, career firefighters can be professionals too. :D ;)

True but only career FF's can be part of the association.....;) ...BC....

[iamvff]

Originally posted by bestcoast
True but only career FF's can be part of the association.....;) ...BC....

If I keep my nose out of this, and you and DFC get into a big fight...just for the record, I call dibs on the concert tickets:p :D

be safe
iamvff

[bestcoast]

Originally posted by iamvff
If I keep my nose out of this, and you and DFC get into a big fight...just for the record, I call dibs on the concert tickets:p :D

be safe
iamvff

Just stirring the pot as usual...i'm a lover not a fighter;) .....And the tickets are in a top secret location..:D :cool: .....BC...

P.S. I cooked today at work...that make me a Professional cook..;) ...BC..

[bcfire]

Originally posted by bestcoast
Just stirring the pot as usual...i'm a lover not a fighter;) .....And the tickets are in a top secret location..:D :cool: .....BC...

P.S. I cooked today at work...that make me a Professional cook..;) ...BC..

I had a similarly composed argument but lost it when I hit the back button. Anyway, professionalism is a mind-set, a skill level, a level of expertise, a certain humility that comes with extreme competence, an ability to go far beyond common knowlege based on education and practical experience. If you earn your living from it, more power to you-you have been truly blessed. Do not attempt to covet the designation as solely yours, there are many professionals that you have not yet met. Many are seeking your guidance and experience. Help them, let them in, they will reward you with your legacy, they will remember you. Our brotherhood was founded on trust and honour. Savour the rookies, teach them, help them, soak them with water, they will not forget. The pay-check does not divide true professionals, they walk the talk.
Any way I've said my piece. "He who thinks his own sh_t doesn't stink is up-wind from his own a$$!Take care BCFIRE

[bestcoast]

Man I thought my "just stirring the pot" comment and a couple of these;) ;) would end this......guess not...anyone can be a "Professional" .......got it....lets move on:rolleyes: ....BC...

[colin911]

I agree bestcoast ... now, I'm going to professionally watch the Simpson's!!!!;)

[bcfire]

Originally posted by bestcoast
Man I thought my "just stirring the pot" comment and a couple of these;) ;) would end this......guess not...anyone can be a "Professional" .......got it....lets move on:rolleyes: ....BC...

It wasn't for you or Colin,it was for the RD. He needs the coaching, although I have been impressed with his assistance to the dude trying for the Coastguard.You guys have been helpful.
I'm still not convinced he's for real yet. Too many wrinkles in his posts. BCFIRE

[bestcoast]

BCFIRE, you quoted me, thats why I replied.....thats all no biggie.......BC out.....:cool:

[bcfire]

Thanks bc,from the land of 1000 golf courses. BCFIRE

[bestcoast]

Originally posted by bcfire
Thanks bc,from the land of 1000 golf courses. BCFIRE

LOL...Roger that BCFIRE............:D ..BC....

P.S. need a fourth for friday...You in??

[bcfire]

Originally posted by bestcoast
LOL...Roger that BCFIRE............:D ..BC....

P.S. need a fourth for friday...You in??

I wish, startin shifts and 4000 miles away! BCFIRE
PS I could maybe send my sis from Errington?

[DFCSmash]

Originally posted by bcfire
PS I could maybe send my sis from Errington?

Oh great, another dating thread! :D :D

[ThFyrWthn]

No wait!!! I don't get what you mean by professional!!!

Professional? You mean like a "professional" or profession...al
there's a difference you know

heh heh :D

RD's little sister SD at it again :D

[iamvff]

Originally posted by ThFyrWthn
No wait!!! I don't get what you mean by professional!!!

Professional? You mean like a "professional" or profession...al
there's a difference you know

heh heh :D

RD's little sister SD at it again :D

No...I think it's professional....BTW...who's Al, and whats his profession anyways?;)

Hey...R_D...what did you do with Paula...she used to be such a nice girl....I thought she was JG's sister?...or was that Sue? I forget! Anyways...bring the real Paula back, she's got to many nice power tools to be mad at her;)

Be safe
iamvff

[bestcoast]

For those of you keeping score at home:

Don't mention.....Green Light's
SCBA's
The word "Professional"

Did I miss any??.......:D :D ....BC.....

[firecadet911]

LMAO bestcoast. But you forgot PPE in the photo of the week contest :p

I'll have to side with the devil here, in a day to day conversation I would refer to a full-time paid firefighter as a professional firefighter and a volunteer firefighter as a volunteer firefighter. Who cares anyways??????

[Red_Devil]

Thanks and thats how i see it plain and simple No need to get your knickers in a knot about it, plain and simple fulltimers are professionals because we simply have choosen this as a fulltime career, its our bread and butter and we do the job day in and day out as compared to a volunteer who does the odd call here and there during the month, and heads down to the hall to do training or truck check in on the weekends.

I compare it like this: Say a professional football player compared to an amateur who does not get payed and doesnt engage fulltime in the sport as a professional player would.

I think the Merriam-Webster dictionary sums it up best with this definition:AMATEUR

2 : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession
3 : one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science

[Fireknight]

Hey Guys, I just got here can anyone tell me why my Local has changed from (O.P.F.F.A)=Ottawa Professional Firefighters Association= Local 162, to (O.P.B.T.W.M.P.B.T.C.B.S.F.F.A)= Ottawa Professional By That We Mean Payed By The City By Salary Firefighters Association=Local 162.

We all have to buy SUV's to fit the new stickers......:confused:

[DFCSmash]

:D :D :D

Maybe it has something to do with the guy in the bar?:D

Just kidding.:)

[iamvff]

Originally posted by Red_Devil
3 : one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science


-Certified - FIRE FIGHTING PRACTICES LEVEL 1 (currently re-taking it, just for my personal interest and training. Taking level 2 in the fall, and EMR in Jan/06)
-Certified - VEHICLE EXTRICATION
-Certified - HAZ-MAT AWARENESS (NFPA 472) 94% on my test
-Certified - STRUCTURAL COLLAPSE LEVEL 1 (Any of you pro's got this one)

OTHER COURSES TAKEN:
-Fire Control
-Confined Space Rescue Skills
-Anhydrous Ammonia
-SCBA & Positive Pressure Ventillation
-Fire Investigation

- Currently been on the Fire Department for 15 years
- Attended over 1000 emergency calls
- Hold position of 2ND Captain
- Current member of the Province of Manitoba Urban Search & Rescue team.

Note: At the last USAR course I was on, which USAR is made up of over 90 volunteers mostly from emergency services, I was probably one of the least qualified people there!

Originally posted by Red_Devil
2 : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession


I have applied recently to the OFC (to no avail, unfortunately) for postions being offered there, and my intention is to take any and all required courses in order to attain my goal by the time I am 45. Therefore, I guess I am a Professional as this is no longer a past time!


We don't know much about you R_D, lets see a list of your accomplishment, you know, just for kicks and giggles!

Have a great day!
be safe
iamvff

[Fireknight]

Originally posted by DFCSmash
:D :D :D

Maybe it has something to do with the guy in the bar?:D

Just kidding.:)

How do you know there's a firefighter at the bar?

Look for the drunk ass waving a badge around....

That happened awhile ago, he was a new recruit and yes he was disciplined....... :rolleyes:

It could have been worse, he could have been in uniform and driving a rig...........:eek:

[DFCSmash]

Originally posted by Fireknight
How do you know there's a firefighter at the bar?

Look for the drunk ass waving a badge around....

That happened awhile ago, he was a new recruit and yes he was disciplined....... :rolleyes:

It could have been worse, he could have been in uniform and driving a rig...........:eek:

Glad to hear about the discipline. True enough, it could have been worse.

So, Fireknight, just cause I'm a curious type, Was there some of that unofficial discipline to go with the official discipline? Not that you'd be able to say officially of course, but maybe you heard from somebody, that heard from somebody, etc.?

[bestcoast]

Originally posted by firecadet911
LMAO bestcoast. But you forgot PPE in the photo of the week contest :p

I'll have to side with the devil here, in a day to day conversation I would refer to a full-time paid firefighter as a professional firefighter and a volunteer firefighter as a volunteer firefighter. Who cares anyways??????

Oh Ya.....forgot the PPE..:D :D ....BC......

[Fireknight]

Originally posted by DFCSmash


Was there some of that unofficial discipline to go with the official discipline? Not that you'd be able to say officially of course, but maybe you heard from somebody, that heard from somebody, etc.?

If a rookie is not up first at the end of a meal to start doing dishes,he may hear about it for the rest of his career....I will leave it at that......

[DFCSmash]

LMAO. That said it all. Thanks Fireknight. :D

[dentedhead]

There is no doubt in my mind we all face the same heat,smoke and associated dangers.We also have to deal with the same B.S check alarms,malicious and accidental false alarms,hang on I am getting to the point!Some of you "vollies" have pretty decent skillsets put together. In the short time I have been on this site I have come to realize some of you guys are totally dedicated to serving your community for all the right reasons.

I was going to keep my beak out of this one but there was a couple of posts in one of the other areas on the site that I just couldnt leave alone.Forgive my inability to pull the direct quotes to this reply but the gist of them was, guys wouldnt show up for automatic alarms,so the page message had to be changed and another said that if grub wasnt on the slate then interest might be low.Of course I am paraphrasing.


When the tones wake me at 03:30 for the local frequent flyer having abdo pain or the large manufacturing plant with the same riser dropping pressure and setting the automatic alarm off for the third time in this block of shifts. I cant go back to that dream I was having about me and the circus midgets or in the day time say nah I am enjoying my lunch I think I will just stay at the hall come get me later Cap.

That IMHO is the greatest difeerence between the professional and the volunteer ,we cant choose what we want to respond to,oh yeah I almost forgot we get paid to go to playgroup.

This is only an observation not a dig or dis,so go on easy on me.

Dentedhead

[WFD999]

Your right. Two sides to every coin though. Look around a large career dept Vancover Tronto etc. " Not pickin on those places" I'll bet you'll find one or two slackers that always go the easy route with the least amount of sweat. Like always there are those that do and those that watch. In both worlds vollie or pro. I posted we had to change our pages. From class and nature with a leagal to report to firehall. One or two didnt like that type or this type of call. So to clear the way we changed kept all the people that wanted to be there for the right reasons. A little finness to clear out the bad apples. In for a penny in for a pound.

[iamvff]

I hear ya Dentedhead (and trust me , no offense taken)...but here is some food for thought..... I am a volunteer, I carry my pager 24/7/365, yes even on christmas day. I am so used to carrying my pager that when I go to the city..out of range of my pager even coming close to working....I still wear it out of habit! When I get home from the city..I drive straight to the hall to see if I missed a call. I have missed many family meals, many family events, many sleeps! I am the owner operator/operator of my business, when my pager goes...I put a note on my door and turn the lock...unconditionally, that makes it a lot tougher to pay the bills! Yesterday, I was taking my 15 year daughter to the city to write for her learners drivers test (a major event in her life!!)...1 mile out of town my pager went (false alarm, no not you Boss...the page was a false alarm!) I turned around and went to the hall without hesitation, as I said to smasher in an earlier PM..my daughter would not have expected any less from me!! If we have 50 calls in a year, and I cannot make 50 of them I make 48...I am either dead or out of town for the other 2!!! I do not pick and choose my calls, I cannot bank and use my sick days when I have a special event, I do not get time and a half. I am 1000% dedicated!! It is unfortunate that there are some volunteers that pick and choose their calls, I couldn't. I would ask all of the career people out there, next time you use a sick day and your not really sick, or next time you use a banked day..just because you didn't feel like working that day, or it was to nice and you had to go golfing....did you not just pick and choose your days you wished to work, picked your calls?? I still will be wearing my pager on the golf course, and BTW...I have missed the back nine on many, many rounds of golf!! I am not trying to brag, I am not trying to knock anyone, I am not employed at a full time dept.......I AM PROFESSIONAL IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD, and so is 90% of the volunteers I know, who are just like me!!!

Oh yeah, and.....I AM CANADIAN (Sorry, it just seemed like a neat thing to say:D )

have a great day
be safe
iamvff

[dentedhead]

WFD999,you dont have to go to a big dept to find serial puppymakers.When we are sent to a call I know we have the manpower there on scene.During attack and knockdown every last one us are giving 100%.When it comes to overhaul, pickup etc the same ones who are unable to swing a mop or do dishes seem to also suffer from salvagecoverpikepole amnesia.The point is, be it the call that makes us sexy(see other topic) or the B.S call. We cant pick and chose whether to go or not respond or convieniently excuse ourselves to leave early.

The true volunteers that are on this site and the ones like them have nothing but my respect for thier efforts to make thier community a safer place.I still feel we are distinctly different in many ways.

Dentedhead,
now on to sooth IAMVFF:D

[dentedhead]

IAMVFF,no offense taken here either.Except, I thought you may have inquired about my midget related dreams!

I am not going to defend every malingerer who feels sick days are not a benifit til you use them.We recieve these leiu days and various perqs because we too work holidays special occasions etc,for instance this year I start work on X-mas day and a 24 hr shift to boot I have young children,so yeah it will suck.I know from my years in fire/ems that its part of the game and we all have to do it.I will be in a station with my second family, not at home with my real family hoping my pager stays quiet.

In a full time busy dept you may do as many as 50 calls a tour unusual, but not unheard of.Depending on the calls for sanity reasons, you may just have to take a banked sick day to reflect on that child you cut from the car who didnt look like a child any more or how lucky you are to be at home hugging your child because if it wasnt for your scba catching you in that hole you didnt see straight to the basement from the third floor of an old warehouse.You may just have to do it again the next call or shift and not a couple of weeks from now when you have had time to digest it and deal with it. These are all very real concerns for volunteer and career alike.

As a volunteer you can always say no thanks I am really not cut out for this,for a career guy its not that easy bills pensions etc.

Your family and community should be very proud to have someone as dedicated as yourself looking out for them.

Dentedhead

[DFCSmash]

Hot damn. 5. count em, 5 reasoned posts in a row. This may be a record! To dented head, iamvff and WFD999 my respect and congratulations on well reasoned and well written posts.

Career or volunteer, we all strive toward the same end result. No calls at all. But, realizing that won't likely happen, we all do our best to give the people who live work and play in our communities peace of mind that their emergencies will be handled correctly and efficiently through our diligence in ongoing training and pride in workmanship. That's professionalism.

[dentedhead]

Make that 6

Dentedhead

[BCFFFV]

I have no problem with the volunteers or paid on call guys.....Usually that is. However I feel embarassed when I see new volunteer recruits who finish their basic training and run out and get firefighter tatoos, order wallet badges off the internet and never take off the fire dept. t-shirts. Are they trying to make people think they are career firefighters????? These are the guys who make me laugh.

[Red_Devil]

Yeah these kinda guys, those are the ones that make me laugh, BCFFFV along with the list you gave...dont forget the volunteer window stickers, bumper stickers, license plate borders all stating they are volunteer firefighters, then theres the light show across the front and rear dash, one green light is ok but the ones that plaster the rear and front dash with lights and rig up there driving lights like fire vechicles, now those guys make me laugh!

[BCFFFV]

Don't get me wrong.....you should be proud to be a volunteer firefighter. But I usually see problems in towns with a mix of career/ volunteer members. SOME of the volunteer guys are an embarrasement. MOST are great guys who have accomplished lives and are volunteers to serve the community. However some people sign up to play fireman. These are the few that create the obvious tension between the two groups that can exist with a thread like this.

[JGallagher]

Well I am going to add my 2 cents in here. I find that Volounteers do more then the regular members per say per call. What I mean by that is that they will respond to more calls and training then the full time guys. I hate to brag but I am one of the most active volounteers on the department. It is awsome to be called to do things before others and such.

[BCFFFV]

Don't think you really need to brag either.....your profile says volunteer firefighter and unemployed.

[bestcoast]

Originally posted by JGallagher
Well I am going to add my 2 cents in here. I find that Volounteers do more then the regular members per say per call. What I mean by that is that they will respond to more calls and training then the full time guys. I hate to brag but I am one of the most active volounteers on the department. It is awsome to be called to do things before others and such.

Respond to more calls!!..:confused: ...what colour is the sky in your world JG........:rolleyes: :rolleyes: ....BC.....

[JGallagher]

Originally posted by bestcoast
Respond to more calls!!..:confused: ...what colour is the sky in your world JG........:rolleyes: :rolleyes: ....BC.....

Well they dont go to all calls. If they are not working if it is only a 2 company call then you will see a volounteer most time before a full time guy i find.

[bestcoast]

So you are talking about your department then. You didn't make that clear in your post. ...BC....

[dentedhead]

JG I dont really know if you are serious or just trying to bait people into pissing match.The back and forths so far have been fairly reasonable and constructive, then you make these statements,the second of which I am not sure of your point.If you are as busy as you claim why has your city/town/village not gone fulltime? If you are already a composite dept. I stand corrected.

I just finished a set of days (5) two compartment fires,mvc requiring extrication too many medicals. Get the picture and I am on a mid size dept in a medium sized city.Throw in our daily training, preplanning, streets & hydrants and the like for a bit fun.We of course had our dowtime to workout, read or whatever.

I wonder what guys and gals like bestcoast,reddevil,fireknight Ltblondie colin911 did on their last tour.They all work in large centers with more than 2-3 halls.

Buddy,think before you type!

Dentedhead

[dentedhead]

RD/BCFFV dont forget that there are just as many career guys who feel that the whole world should know that they are FFs.They can generally be put in two catagories the firebuff he can tell you what dept runs what apparatus what gear they use and thinks your dept should get whatever the flavour of the day is "cause it looks sweet" and Phoenix (sp) uses it.Then there is the hardcore guy.All clothing and accessories must have maltese cross and dept logo,has only an interest in any thing relating to firefighting they quite often just happen to be "in the neighbourhood" when a good/bad fire is on the go.They also usually make fun of the firebuff.I definatley agree with both of your points as well.Don't get me started on the nevergonnabe.

You can be sure I have never been prouder of any non family achievment in my life than that of being a firefighter.But if Ive said it once Ill say it again it does not define me, its how I pay my bills.It just happens to be the coolest job around in my opinion.

Dentedhead

[bestcoast]

Originally posted by dentedhead
RD/BCFFV dont forget that there are just as many career guys who feel that the whole world should know that they are FFs.They can generally be put in two catagories the firebuff he can tell you what dept runs what apparatus what gear they use and thinks your dept should get whatever the flavour of the day is "cause it looks sweet" and Phoenix (sp) uses it.Then there is the hardcore guy.All clothing and accessories must have maltese cross and dept logo,has only an interest in any thing relating to firefighting they quite often just happen to be "in the neighbourhood" when a good/bad fire is on the go.They also usually make fun of the firebuff.I definatley agree with both of your points as well.Don't get me started on the nevergonnabe.

You can be sure I have never been prouder of any non family achievment in my life than that of being a firefighter.But if Ive said it once Ill say it again it does not define me, its how I pay my bills.It just happens to be the coolest job around in my opinion.

Dentedhead


Very well put Dentedhead, totally agree.........BC...

[WFD999]

Well last page EH. I' ve got a license plate on the truck and where my ball cap on occasion. ( hope this dosent spaw spontanious gigle fits ). Whats so wrong with being identified in your community. The plate kinda helps explian without questions why you sat in line at the car wash for 1\2 a hour and were next up and took off. Ya I laugh at the joehurkurock superman dudes too. We have pagers but we also blow the siren every call. Overkill naa. That kinda helps change the attitude at 3 in the morning of the councilor that thinks we volunteers and no differnt than the volunteers with lions club.
Most of us volunteers work 80+ hours a week and then put another 20 to 40 at our respective halls. I know some of the pro guys got gigs on the side too. Yes there are vollie departments that make everrybody cringe. The volunteers I know and talk and hang around with are firefighters and dont turn down the crappy no fun calls. These poeple are of high charactor that give back to thier communities and most do truly love our craft. A lot of them dont get piad. Sorry got a100% raise last year a 100% of FA is still FA. The pro's I know and talk with are also firefighters and people of High charactor that give back to thier community and love our craft. Just lucky enough to get piad to do something which they enjoy.
A lot of volunteers dont do some of the more specialized things high angle, Haz Mat etc. I its possilbe that were not firefighters because of that. But the same could be said for a pro thats stationed with a pump and only on the pipe.

So lets see

Love of craft
high charactor
community spirit

HMM these seem the same on both sides of the paycheck and the union due's.
Could it be we are all firefighters.

[bestcoast]

WFD999, you work 80 hours a week!! then 20-40 hrs at the firehall....when do you eat and sleep. Please tell me thats a misprint.......:D ....BC....

[WFD999]

Ahh Yes misprint. 40+. Close though there both multiples of 2.;)

[bestcoast]

Originally posted by WFD999
Ahh Yes misprint. 40+. Close though there both multiples of 2.;)

LOL...thats sort of what i thought....;) ...BC...

[DFCSmash]

Hi BC. When I am working, anywhere between 60 and 100 hours a week. But, I'm not fighting any fires (except with customers and dispatch ;) ) if the week is over 80hr. Only because I'm not home. :D 12-15 a day on average for me.

[bestcoast]

Hi Smash, thats great , hold tight while I run and get you a brownie badge.....;) ....BC...

[firecadet911]

A thought provoking question for those of you who have been quick to criticize RD for his point here: I volunteer with my local EMS department at public venues doing a little bit of public relations work here and there. Does that make me a professional public relations person?? Sure, it doesn't pay the mortgage/rent, put food on the table, insure the vehicles, or provide me a pension upon retirement but I do it quite often and sometimes I miss out on going out with friends and what-not because I have chosen to volunteer instead (though I understand that's absolutely nothing compared to the sacrifices that many volunteer firefighters make)

So if you answered no to my first question, does it mean that I don't compose myself in a professional manner? Does that mean that I'm lousy when it comes to public relations? Not at all!

I think it's fair to say that full-time career firefighters would be placed under the category of "Professional" as far as the occupational definition goes, and those that are not full-time career firefighters would be placed under the category of "Volunteer". The definition, in my opinion is not based on hours of training, or number of courses completed, or how many Christmas dinners with your family you've missed. It's simply a matter of whether or not you are employed in the field as opposed to volunteer in the field.

Employed = Career = Professional
Volunteer = Volunteer

Whether you have a wardrobe that consists solely of fire department apparell, have a firefighting related tattoo on your body, or a specially marked license plate is completely irrelevant in determining whether or not you are a professional firefighter.

If we were to base whether or not you are given the title of "Professional Firefighter" on the number of courses taken, then who would decide what that number would be?? If it were to be based on hours of training, then who would keep tab of everybodys hours??

Well, it's 3am and I think I've done enough disturbing here for one night. Can't wait to wake up and see what trouble this post has started :D

[Red_Devil]

I agree with you FireCadet911, good point!! I think we all know now what constitutes a professional vs volunteer. Oh and JG i bet there would be a lot of other volunteer firefighters that would LOVE to respond to almost every call and attend all training but the reality is I bet these guys hold down a FULLTIME JOB! and family, i respect a guy or girl far more who makes an honest effort to respond to calls and training while holding down his/her fulltime career as compared to those jobless individuals who sit around all day, wearing the pager, car or bicycle backed in ready to go or taxi on speeddial;) just waiting for the call.

[BCFFFV]

Never meant to say there was a problem being identified as a volunteer FF. I will say a million times it's a great group to be a part of. And for many it's a true hobby. Some people go bowling once a week. For me once a week I trained as a volunteer and responded to calls. And had a great group of guys to get to know. If I hadn't been hired full time I would have remained a volunteer probably for life. I feel lucky to be a career FF.....although I worked my butt off to get the job. I'm only talking of a few people I have met who are volunteers that embarass me. For example.....as a career FF I had to wait a full year of probation was over to say I was a FF. When I see volunteers who haven't even been to "A SINGLE FIRE" go get permanent tatoos and "brag" to people they are FF's.....well hell yeah it makes me cringe a little. Then when they go get wallet badges to make the public think they are career FF's it makes me sort of shake my head. And believe me these things cause a bit of a stir with the local union FF's in my area also.

[tmehmel]

So just to get this clear, If I Study to be a Doctor of Medicine GP, and I complete my certification, and decide to volunteer my skills instead to Doctors without borders for example, then I am just a volunteer? So if I take my NFPA courses that would allow me to work either as a full timer or a vol, would I not be a professional either way, except only when I respond to a call as a vollie?

We are a Brotherhood and we work together as a team and we all do what needs to be done to get the job done in a professional manner. We train to the same standard to ensure consistancy in how we deal with the public from whatever aspect, at whatever department either in Canada, the US and even Russia now.

my two cents and I salute both sides of this debate as you are all my brothers!!

Tom

[dentedhead]

Man for something I was gonna keep my beak out of I been pulled into the vortex.

I think that the argument of career vs vollie has been addressed with points being scored on each side.I think it is fair to say us career guys give our volunteer brothers who are in the game for the truly altruistic reasons nothin but love and props as the kids say, and we at least speaking for my self feel it is mutual.

It appears we may be on the verge of a RAT here I am seeing some odd whatifs now.If I am a doctor who is a volunteer ff who is an engineer and I volunteer to build bridges for sick people am I still a plumber?Oh man I am going to catch for that one:eek:

The references to those who like to wear all the firefashion,carry the tin light up personal vehicles you are only fooling yourself.There is nothing wrong with wearing your hat or having a license plate,hell I am wearing a Detroit fire T-shirt right now and Ive never been to a fire there.If you are redwings fan you will probably want one too.

I have heard that in Ontario there are so many people getting the FD plate that the IAFF is working on a members only plate.To get an existing plate all you do is pay your $52. and your on your way.I have heard guys say they have been pulled over and been asked are you fulltime, volunteer or just another wannabe(sorry Sue no offence to present company intended).

Well thats my Sunday morning rant done

Dentedhead

[colin911]

I think it's pointless to waste my breath (or fingers more accurately) on this topic. There are going to be people on here that can't help but feel put down because they're not called professional firefighters. If they want to tell their families and friends and cops that they're professional firefighters, let them.

And Dentedhead, you made me laugh so much with your Professional Plumber building bridges!!!

[DFCSmash]

BC, you sounded amazed that some worked more hours than 50 or so a week. WFD999 hadn't replied to your query yet, so I threw in my reply. I don't need a brownie badge. A lot of us work 10 and 14 hour days. And it's not 4 on 4 off. Sounds envious? Of course it is. A career that is challenging and rewarding. For the most part respected and admired by the public for the job you do. Good renumeration and enought time off to have a second job, or (as it should be done) to really enjoy life. I'd be lying if I said I don't envy you and the great gig you've got. There's an ugly side to it for sure, but hey, volunteers get that too, without as many perks.

Upon further reflection, if one was to continue the extrapolation of this thread, and the whole professional question, when it comes right down to it, firefighting isn't a profession at all. It is a trade. Like plumbing, bricklaying, and electrical work, it requires knowledge of the tasks required and the attendant skills at carrying out those tasks to a succesful conclusion. So that makes us either career or volunteer. And none of us are practioners of a profession. Thats not to imply that anyone does not practice their trade in a professional manner. But we are Journeymen or Master firefighters ( Level I or Level II ) with sundry other certications available to us once we have attained Journeyman status.

I drive for a living. Therefore people refer to me as a professional driver. (they likely call me other things as well) Driving is not a profession. It is not even a trade. It is simply a learned skill. Like building cars. So perhaps the problem is that we are putting too much stock into a term which is overused and no longer holds much stock as to the job description it entails.

So I'll leave the description of professional (as it only means paid, according to the paid people) for the career firefighters. I will henceforth use the term journeyman firefighter to describe myself, as it means skilled, trained, dedicated to the craft and able to do the job to completion in a correct and timely manner.

[Fireknight]

Originally posted by DFCSmash
BC, you sounded amazed that some worked more hours than 50 or so a week. WFD999 hadn't replied to your query yet, so I threw in my reply. I don't need a brownie badge. A lot of us work 10 and 14 hour days. And it's not 4 on 4 off.

The Ottawa long shift is 2, 10hr days 1, 24hr day 3, 14hr nights for a total of 86 hours in 6 days, as for the term Volunteer that is a word of contention around my dept. simply because they are not volunteers, they are payed for the job they do, therefore they are part-time firefighters within our city, which, rightfully so becomes a union issue, they wear the same uniform and drive the same rigs and many people in the area they serve do not even know that they are "volunteers" is this a problem? well it can be, we are held by a code of conduct with in the city, our T-shirts are even classed as uniform wear, I have many times been in stores and other places where people are trying to pass themselfs off as career firefighters or drinking in bars wearing fire dept. T's or sweatshirts. when approached they tell me that they are volunteers. There is a need for volunteer firefighters as is there a need for career firefighters but comparing the two is not going to win anyone over to one side or the other we are just too different.

My two cents anyway.........

[bestcoast]

Smash, I was stirring the pot man, thought you figured out I do that from time to time. Yes I was suprised that someone worked 80 + hours a week and then another 40 at the fire hall. Then WFD999 replied it was a misprint. End of story, so i thought. Truckers work long hours and it definatley isn't a job for just anyone, but I already knew that. Really as far as i'm concerned you can call yourself whatever you want, professional, journeyman, volunteer, paid on call, professional paid on call, journeyman paid on call, dig out a couple dictionary's and type out definition's, doesn't really matter to me. I've never really seen guys get so bent out of shape about something on here. This could go on and on and on, anyone doing anything basically can call themselves professional it seem's, by the definition of the word. However i'm sticking to my gun's. I have a tremendous amount of respect for (insert desired word here) firefighters, but professional FF to me will always mean full time guy's, FK is right, comparing the two is not going to win anyone over to one side or the other we are just too different......right or wrong that is how I see it....:D :cool: :D .....BC.....

[iamvff]

Holy crap...I go away for the weekend to play a little hockey, and you folks start writing journals for posts....man, I think I need a nap after reading all of that!:confused: ;)

But unfortunately, as you all well know....I'm sorry, but I must reply to some of this:(

Most of the post I read were fairly irrelevant to the topic, and unfortunately in this particular forum..ended up debating who works more hours, or harder, or whatever. My opinion on this, is whoever debates that Volunteer depts work more hours than career depts is a fool. Yes, there are most likely some depts that do, but I would assume this is very rare (If I am wrong then please start another thread based on that arguement). If you remember correctly, the topic at hand is whether or not volunteers should be classified as professionals or not. I read one post that jumped out at me and I will use their example to illustrate my opinion.

-Well trained, dedicated, hard working = PROFESSIONAL
-Employed in emergency services and is concidered to be your main source of income = CAREER
-Offer your services to your community, free/minimal pay, but is not concidered your main source of income = VOLUNTEER

Just my opinion,
have a good one
be safe
iamvff

PS - I must add that this has been one of the better debates on the site in my opinion. Not due to the topic, but do to the fact that there was not ignorance, and insults thrown in. Good clean clear descussions (even though I think some of you are wrong and I am right:eek: :) :D ) Also...I have a very nice FF tattoo thank you very much, which BTW I got 2 years ago, 13 years after becoming a VFF. I did not get it to show off. I put several years of concideration ito it, because it is there for life and I wanted to get a tatoo of some of the things that mean the most in my life!! Oh, yeah...and I also own a sign shop that makes those little stickers for the windows.....R_D..PM me and I will send you one for free:D

[Red_Devil]

you guys got it all wrong man, look up professional in the dictionary! ;)

[mikeeps]

Here is a link to your word "professional"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=professional

Michael

[bestcoast]

I've been telling my buddies this for year's. Now I have proof!!! I'm a professional golfer!! Well I take their money on a weekly basis anyways....;) ....BC....

[Red_Devil]

hahaha nice one!

[dentedhead]

I just checked that dictionary site. Look up volunteer aswell check the thesaurus out as well.

Dentedhead

[Leafs Fan]

In the end who cares what you call yourself. The public sure doesn't. They just want someone to come when they are having the worst day of their miserable life and competently and efficiently mediate the situation.
In the end if your pay is still there every second Friday, bonus. If not, than on behalf of your community, thanks for a job well done.

[dentedhead]

IAMVFF,nice of you to grace us with your presence,hope you enjoyed your hockey tourney.;)

There have been some long posts written but I think mostly relevent and thought out,its not an easy topic to one line.

The baby rat was a couple of guys mentioned those who misrepresent or show all of us in a bad light.You know the ones that tell everyone that they are FF with the T-shirts,badges and all the trappings that are meant to be earned and not just bought because they are available and you sprayed water into a dumpster onetime at firecamp.I have no problems with people being proud of what they are and have walked the walk.It may seem contrary to some of my opinions but I too want to get a tattoo representing my pride of being on the job,thats not new for me as I already sport several of them.They are like those chips that Messier flogs ya cant just have one.I had been thinking about starting a thread on this but someone beat me to it.

The giant rat started when our learned colleague from the east made those assinine statements about being busier than fulltimers,I still dont understand the second one.

It seems that any occupation that has a "volunteer" aspect will spawn the same arguement.Reg forces dont think reservists are real soldiers,career cops dont like auxillaries same in EMS.At least we as FFs consider each other brothers,we just have different mothers as the saying goes.

I really dont know how it will ever be resolved this is certainly a chicken or egg type debate.We all know what the IAFF stance is.What about IFSTA,NFPA,labour board or employment standards act do they maybe offer a better definition?

Hopefully this will be my last novel,somehow I doubt it.Since you didnt ask again I will now NOT tell you about my circus midget related dreams.

Dentedhead

[iamvff]

Leafsfan, excellent post!!!

DH,
I agree to disagree about the professional topic. I do however truely feel that anyone with a lick of sense in the career world does respect the volunteer, and any volunteer who doesn't respect the career person, is a fool! I not only respect the career FF, I envy them to no end!! Some members of this forum must realize...a little respect of their peers reguardless of career or volunteer will go along way!!

BTW..about the circus midgets..there are not to many topics that I don't have some kind of a smartass comment on the tip of my tongue, this one included. But I find the older I get the more I realize the ones to say out loud, and the ones to hold inside. In an environment of words, not faces...I'll choose to pass on that one. No offense taken or implied.

be safe
iamvff

[DFCSmash]

Jeez, iamvff came up here to visit with me a couple of weeks ago and didn't even mention he had a tattoo. Or try to show it to me (that may be a good thing, it could be in one of those wife's eyes only spots). :D

Oh, and to tmehmel, I think one of your guys was up here taking his Fire Service Instructor I this weekend. Archangel Fireworks truck. Now THAT is a too cool day job! Evening job? I kinda miss pyrotechnics.

I would just like to thank all who have participated in this thus far for the most part civil discussion. I think that there is no doubt that for the most part we respect each others viewpoints and abilities. And we seem to share a common disrespect for those who do their part in trying to lower the bar in respect to behaviour both on and off duty. :)

[tmehmel]

Hi Smash,

That was my lt and my pub ed leader. He made it home safely just in time for us to return to the hall from a 4 cars in the ditch call.

I took the course for fireworks through him and can't wait to do some more shoots.

hmmm maybe another profession? I have the Red light, sticker, shirts, use SCBA and use ladder leg lock!

LOL
Tom

[dentedhead]

iamvff,none taken just a little tension breaker on a serious discussion.I cant help myself either.How can I install that self edit button?

Dentedhead

[DFCSmash]

iamvff,none taken just a little tension breaker on a serious discussion.I cant help myself either.How can I install that self edit button?

Dentedhead

I noticed iamvff hadn't answered your query yet. There are two methods of installation that I am aware of. One involves repeated kicks to the posterior by peers. The other involves going over to the nearest VERY solid surface and smacking your forehead against it repeatedly while invoking the following chant: didIreallyjustsaythatoutloud, didIreallyjustsaythatoutloud, ... about 5 reps. It may take more than one attempt to install successfully. :D

Hope this helps. :)

[iamvff]

I noticed iamvff hadn't answered your query yet. There are two methods of installation that I am aware of. One involves repeated kicks to the posterior by peers. The other involves going over to the nearest VERY solid surface and smacking your forehead against it repeatedly while invoking the following chant: didIreallyjustsaythatoutloud, didIreallyjustsaythatoutloud, ... about 5 reps. It may take more than one attempt to install successfully. :D

Hope this helps. :)

Thanks DFC, after years of repeated blows to the head, I tend to miss the odd time when someone is talking to me.

be safe
iamvff

[dentedhead]

guys could ya not figger that with a handle like dentedhead that wont work.The other option is no good cause I am short and stubby so no one can get good enough force behind a kick for it to register.

To avoid a rat charge,we are all professional in our own way.

[iamvff]

we are all professional in our own way.

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU MEAN BY THAT!!!!.....Just kidding

be safe
iamvff

[dentedhead]

I forget,what topic is this again?

Dentedhead

[WFD999]

Here it is..

[wilderness]

Speaking of R/D where is the royal pain.... we miss ya, come back