Public Hoses in High Rises

[Kearley]

On each floor in my building there's a length of 2.5 hose attatched to the standpipe. I'm pretty sure this isn't for firefighter use because they have to use their own hoses, because they have no assurance ours aren't deffective. And the hoses aren't long enough to reach the floor above, which is the SOP of fighting a high rise fire, for the base of opperations to be the floor below the fire floor.
So my question is what is the use of this hose? Is it for public use? And if so, would it be wise to hold training sessions on when it would be wise for the public to use it. Or what to expect when it is used?

[DoubleHelix]

It's for occupant use and there should be a connection for firefighters to attach there apartment packs to. All departments SOG's will be different but one of my captains at school told me one time he had a small fire in a apartment and he got a guy from his crew to just use the occupant hose and the thing had tons of holes in it and it turned out to be alot bigger fire because of the wasted time. He said he'd never trust a hose like that again but I guess if you know that the building is highly maintained it might work for small fire but the pressure in those things isn't very high compared to the firefighter connections on there.

[colin911]

Most of the hose cabinets in the hi-rises in my running area have hoses that would be suitable for firefighting. The water pressures would be the same ... it comes out of the same standpipe. Our practice is to use our own hose from the apartment pack ... 2 lengths of 38 preconnected to a 65-38mm reducer. Depending on the smoke conditions of the fire floor, we'll just use that floor's hose cabinet. If it's too smokey, we use the floor below's. The problem with attacking from the floor below, the door to the stairwell is propped open by the hose, allowing smoke to get into the stairwell and possibly hamper the tenants leaving the building.

[Red_Devil]

while on the topic of standpipe systems in high-rises, Heres an important thing to consider if you have large high rises in your first run area, you might wanna make sure certain high-rises dont have pressure regulating devices which potentially serious problems, theres actually an NFPA alert bulletin on them. Basically what the devices do is when head pressure on the lower levels of a standpipe system is significant, add to the problem of jockey pumps, excessive pressures can be found at many locations especially at lower levels, because of this there may be a need to reduce and regulate the pressure at standpipe hose connection cabinets. The problem is if faced with a pressure regulating device , you may not know it, and not have sufficient water pressure unless you know how to remove and find the regulating device. There was a fatal fire back in 1991 in Philiadelphia, a high-rise and the firefighters were faced with this problem, they were unware on how to find and adjust the devices, which allowed the fire to get an upperhand, the problem wasnt fixed for a few hrs i believe. As a result a few brothers lost their lives that evening. Just some info for ya... Colin, what base pump pressure do you guys use for standpipes and what base pump pressure for sprinkler systems?

[Fireknight]

The pressure regulators are usually on the lower floor cabinets, and our SOP says to hook up a floor below, but like most SOP they are guide lines unless something goes wrong then they are law, we quite often hook up on the fire floor, it all depends on how close the hose cabinet is to the involved area or the severity of the fire.

[Fireknight]

Originally posted by Kearley
So my question is what is the use of this hose? Is it for public use? And if so, would it be wise to hold training sessions on when it would be wise for the public to use it. Or what to expect when it is used?

Answer for one, it is there because of building codes

Answer for two, no, hise-rise firefighting is very dangerous for trained firefighters, civies trying to put one out would just turn into rescues.

Answer to three, don't

Be safe, stay in your room if not near the fire or evacuate the building, you will do more help getting people out of the building than trying to fight the fire.

[Red_Devil]

I say if its a small fire then residents should use the supplied hose in the cabinets, if they (the resident) can get agent be it water or dry chem on it before it gets out of hand then by all means use it. For unknown fires of origin or fires involving entire compartments, then yeah get to a pullstation and pull it and evacuate if you can and leave the big stuff up to the PROFESSIONALS ;)

[Fireknight]

Okay, a small fire maybe, but Red you have probably seen as I have seen a limited space hallway in a high-rise go from a smell of smoke to loaded floor to ceiling in a matter of minutes and small stuff can become big stuff real fast, I am just afraid of some people trying to do to much and going down, most victims of highrise fires are found in the hallways, I respect your advice as a brother, but I will stick to mine.

We are professionals after all...... :D

[Red_Devil]

i agree!!

[wilderness]

no resident of any building should attack any fire, regardless of what size, they could in turn push the seat of the fire, causing a bigger problem for us. The last thing we need is a kid thinking he can be a asset to the firefighters by knocking down the flames..... hell no leave the hose in the cabinet, call 911 and leave the building.....its that simple

[bestcoast]

In almost all apartment building's, mine included, on the instruction to occupant's in case of fire placard it say's and I quote " At your discretion, attempt to control the fire with the available fire equipment". I'm not sure what i think about it, If it's something like a trash can or something small I would say go ahead and put it out (still calling 911 of course) but I quess that's where the "at your discretion" comes into play. If in doubt pull the pull station, get the hell out, and help should be there in 5..........BC......

[iamvff]

I hope they don't have a grease fire in the kitchen and the water hose reaches that far!

be safe
iamvff

[scoop422]

The hose in the cabinet is for the residents and I think the rule is the fire stream has to reach every area of the apartment not the hose, just the stream. We always use our own hose and generally hit the cabinet on the fire floor.

[bestcoast]

Well like I said. "At your discertion" there are grease fires that are pretty small and I would hope that if my neighbour had a small grease fire they would make a bit of an effort to put it out rather than high tail it out the door and watch the suite and possibly mine go up in flames. However if it was a grease fire that was really going and put someone in any kind of danger whatsoever then of course pull the pull staion and evacuate the building and help should be there in 5......BC....

[Red_Devil]

I agree, thats why i say if its a small fire and you can catch it while its still small then yeah i would want that done rather then take off and let the thing grow to the point where it involves the entire floor.

[FireEMTGuy]

I kind of skimmed the posts but here is my reply:

Class I – 65 mm hose connection
For fire department use

Class II – 35 mm hose connection
For use by building occupants until the fire department arrives

Class III – Combination of class I and class II
For building occupant and fire department use

It's for occupant use and there should be a connection for firefighters to attach there apartment packs to.

Not necessarily, as stated above it has to be the correct class of standpipe system, installed per code, for there to be a 65 connection in it.

[resqteacher]

Due to problems with overall condition of these hoses as previously mentioned - dont use em!
Due to lack of training and speed of fire spread - don't use em!
In fact - even the fire extinguisher can lead to more problems if used by an untrained individual. A woman in Alberta dishcharged one straight down into a trash can, which caused flame and heat to flash in her face. She took a big gulp of the super heated gases, and it blistered her airway shut - killing her!

These devices - hoses and extinguishers - should be used as a last resort only - as in to knock down fire that is blocking your ONLY exit!

[Michael13]

Exactly! I civilian I bet 9 time out of 10 is not ready for the blast of pressure from the line. I'm sure all of you can remember the very first time in your life running a nozzle and line. If you are not braced and ready for it, it will knock you on your butt. Residents do not need to use them. If theres a small grease fire then an ABC extingusher is what should be used. TRash can fire? Same deal, use the extingusher or the water extingusher. If the folks arnt trained to use the hose, they shouldnt use them. GET OUT AND STAY OUT!

[Kearley]

So I guess this comes back to me. We HAVE them. And right now I bet most people think it's like a garden hose. And I could picture someone dropping it from the cabinet, turning the valve, and then we could imagine the shock and surprise when the hose doesn't stay still... Should the building's committy, of which my father is part, act in any way upon this? Have a firefighter come in and say don't use it, for example. Or, there's one in the parking garage, which is always wet anyways, so we could stretch that one out just to show them, it's not a garden hose.
I know to just get outta the building. But they don't, and they see gear. Is this good?

[Michael13]

Excellent idea. Every kid gets to hold the hose when they tour our station, so if you showed the residents the pressure of the line it might help. Show the resdients how to pull the line and charge it, the operation of the nozzle(stream to fog), and to stay low, and sweeping action. But also stress that this is only to be done if their life is in danger. Same rule as extingushers. Get out of the hot zone and decide wheather ot not to flee and call help or put it out. Help should always be called first. If I were you I would be having Fire extingusher training every year as well. Maybe not actual fire and using one, but teach them PASS (Pull, Aim, Squeeze and Sweep). And show them the basic maintenace for extingushers. (for the ones in their suites, not the ones inthe hallways). We offer fire extingusher training to any groups or businesses in our community. A pan of deisel and kerosine and they put the fire out. 9 out 0f 10 dont know how to use one and alot of them also turn their face away and close their eyes when using one, and the fire never goies out, cuz they are spraying madly everywhere. Alot of building managers and owners should practice this, since all departments dont have the time and man power to to educate every person out there.

[mutts252]

no resident of any building should attack any fire, regardless of what size, they could in turn push the seat of the fire, causing a bigger problem for us. The last thing we need is a kid thinking he can be a asset to the firefighters by knocking down the flames..... hell no leave the hose in the cabinet, call 911 and leave the building.....its that simple

i agree... as much as it's building code to have them, it's just plain dangerous to have untrained people operating a fire hose in such a situation... not only for the fact that they're a whole lot more potent in terms of kickback than people realise, but that they'd be in a situation that i think we can all agree can be a bit hairy at the best of times (and without any PPE to boot). best to get out, help people out on the way if you can, and wait for the shiny red trucks to show up. :)

[fireintervention]

Well not that I truly think that....however I completed my fire service training in California and for my inspection class I ironically had to go out and do an inspection on my own. I choose a two level hotel close to my home. The California Fire Code defines that there is to be a 2.5 inch in the hallways behind breakable glass. Well low and behold I came upon one...and there wasn't a hose or nozzle to be seen for miles...or as far as the setting sunny actually. Of course I felt a little panic, knowing the code and all...so I alerted the manager who was nice enough to let me inspect the place as a student. I then took the info back to my fire service instructor and wouldn't you know the code had changed. The occupancy doesn't have to have the hallway hose line connection IF the occupancy is installed with a sprinkler system. Apparently the hotel had upgraded and had a sprinkler system in each room.

Well at least I knew the code from code book. (those darn changes they make!) And yes I did call the manager back and informed her...no worries all your rooms have sprinklers.....you don't need to have the hoses in the hallway.

Anyway I hear your delimia.... I was wondering aren't the hoses inspected annually by a fire equipment service company? That should be part of the building maintenance schedule which would rest assure your mind that if someone did take that duty on....the hose and pressure would at least be operating.
Stay Safe

[handy]

Well not that I truly think that....however I completed my fire service training in California and for my inspection class I ironically had to go out and do an inspection on my own. I choose a two level hotel close to my home. The California Fire Code defines that there is to be a 2.5 inch in the hallways behind breakable glass. Well low and behold I came upon one...and there wasn't a hose or nozzle to be seen for miles...or as far as the setting sunny actually. Of course I felt a little panic, knowing the code and all...so I alerted the manager who was nice enough to let me inspect the place as a student. I then took the info back to my fire service instructor and wouldn't you know the code had changed. The occupancy doesn't have to have the hallway hose line connection IF the occupancy is installed with a sprinkler system. Apparently the hotel had upgraded and had a sprinkler system in each room.

Well at least I knew the code from code book. (those darn changes they make!) And yes I did call the manager back and informed her...no worries all your rooms have sprinklers.....you don't need to have the hoses in the hallway.

Anyway I hear your delimia.... I was wondering aren't the hoses inspected annually by a fire equipment service company? That should be part of the building maintenance schedule which would rest assure your mind that if someone did take that duty on....the hose and pressure would at least be operating.
Stay Safe

That's where the problem is. Older codes of the day did not require high rise buildings to be sprinklered so they may have had a 2.5 inch connection, (classI) in the exit stair shaft and/or a 2.5 connection in the hallway with a 1.5 connection with a 100 feet of hose, (classIII). Sometimes the NFPA standards applied alone or with the local building codes. Everybody is different. In older non-sprinklered buildings, the 1.5 inch/100 ft hose was intended for the occupant to use and the 2.5 connection was for larger firefighting streams. NFPA standards require that the 100ft of 1.5in hose be hydrostatically tested every 3 years or 5 years if it was new. Alot of building owners do not follow requirements. They may be neglected for years. That happens all the time. So you can see that this question requires a 10 page answer. If a older building upgrades and installs a sprinkler system throughout, the AHJ may allow them to remove the 100ft/ 1.5in hose because now it's not required. This goes on and on.