Rescue from silos

[Toxic]

Hello all.
I have been tasked with coming up with a rescue plan for a 40 year old farm silo containing alfalfa silage. I have most of the pieces of the puzzle but am having problems with finding an suitable anchor point for retrieval. basically there is nothing suitable at the top of the silo to tie on to.

Any chance that anyone can point me in the direction of a document dealing with silo rescue?

[resqteacher]

Hey Toxic,
Is there any kind of caged ladder inside the silo? I've seen anchoring points set up using anchor slings or flat webbing across the top of the cage in a criss-cross manner and then attaching to the middle where all the straps criss cross.
Just an idea.

Other than that you might have to fix some type of permanent anchor point up there if this is a huge concern.

[colin911]

Just thinking out loud here, but could an aerial truck be used if it could get close enough to the silo? Obviously if the silo is over say 80ft, it wouldn't be an option, but surely there are silos that are lower than that, no?

[Red_Devil]

Yeah Colin i was thinking along the samelines, I dont have too much experience dealing with silos and rural rescues but yeah i was thinking along the same lines, top rope from the aerial eyelets located at the tip of the aerial?

[wilderness]

i,m thinking like resqteacher, from the ladder on the outside of the silo or the inside depending on the style of silo.... we have silo's ranging in height from 25' to 120' and an ariel ladder sometimes in rural area's are tuff to find... ..... i think i Scotty has the right idea

[Toxic]

Arial ladder is not an option. Closest thing would be to bring in a contractor with a crane.

The criss cross pattern on the ladder is a great idea - I'm gonna remember that one for future use. Unfortunately there is no ladder in this thing. The guy unloading the silage is expected to climb up these doors to the top to slide open the doors and release the silage. He keeps moving his way down sliding the one door after the next until all the silage is out.

Mounting anchor points to the silo is also no good. An engineering report has stated that there is not way to make an anchor point that will support enough shock load. Provincial regs require a 4000 lbs load rating!

The only thing I can come with is a system that would tie off ropes somewhere on the ground and lead up to the silo top and down the silo. I'm not sure how to do this though.

The situation we are in is this... The silo is full and needs to be emptied. Workplace Health and Safety has issued a stop work order until we can make some concessions for rescue/fall protection. This is a one shot deal. Once the silo is emptied we are ripping it down. I'm in a unique situation on this one - I'm the safety guy for the company that owns the silo but I'm also a firefighter in the district where this thing is located.

[wilderness]

ok how about drilling 6 holes through the silo, and getting someone to weld a plate with an anchoring point.....and attaching the plate to the silo with threaded rod through each of the six holes....

[iamvff]

Don't know anything about rope rescue....but here is my 2 cents worth. the doors that can open along the sides? What is the distance between them? could you drop a rope down the top one and through the one below, come back around and up with a figure eight on a bend and beener them together? or could you wrap a rope around (I know it's a great distance) the bin horizontally 2 or 3 time and use that as your anchor point?? With something of that size, it would only take 2 or 3 wraps for a solid anchor point, wouldn't it?? Just guesses, hope it spurs an idea!

Be safe
iamvff

[Toxic]

I'll look at the Eng report again. He may have been proposing to just use something like an eye bolt when he said it couldn't be done.

[colin911]

Arial ladder is not an option. Closest thing would be to bring in a contractor with a crane.

Then why not hire a crane or something of the like ... a great tie off vantage point, and you know that it will be okay for shockload. That way you don't have to worry about engineering details in regards to building integrity.

[Toxic]

The issue with the crane right now is cost. The guy has to go into the silo 20 times to slide open doors to unload. The crane would be onsite for so long it might be cheaper to setup some semi permanent anchors. The crane is definetely an option though.

The enginnering report is a little vague. I may need to follow with a phone call.

[Toxic]

Originally posted by iamvff
the doors that can open along the sides? could you drop a rope down the top one and through the one below, come back around and up with a figure eight on a bend and beener them together?

Probably not. The doors are really old and don't look all that strong. It would also get in the way of sliding the next door up to unload.

[iamvff]

Originally posted by Toxic
Probably not. The doors are really old and don't look all that strong. It would also get in the way of sliding the next door up to unload.

Actually, I meant to use the top two door openings, not the doors, and to put your rope through one opening and out the other, therefore using the body of the structure as your anchor point. It should be a bomb proof anchor point, and if you use the top two openings, it should not effect the opening of the doors below. although I may have this pictured wrong in my head though.

Be safe
iamvff

[tcvfd16]

well here a idea from a farmer... by the sounds of it this silo must be at least 50 years old or was owned someone that didn't use hydro. the silage will not flow out on its own!! someone or something will have to be used to empty the silo. as for a tie off point i would use the rebar used to hold the doors in place.
other than that either don't use a rope and climb or pay a demo company to come in and just blow it up!

and before anyone jumps down my throat about the "unsafe" climb don't waste your time... I'm a farmer and nothing about being a farmer is safe, i climb our 100 foot silo every other week without safety ropes

[Toxic]

Originally posted by tcvfd16

and before anyone jumps down my throat about the "unsafe" climb don't waste your time... I'm a farmer and nothing about being a farmer is safe

Actually would never think of jumping down your throat. I do workplace Health and Safety stuff at work. However I also grew up on dairy/cereal farm. Some of the things I have to tell people not to do is stuff I've done many times before myself. The farm boy in me wants to just climb into the silo (with an air monitor though) and dump the silage. But that's not an option. Because we are considered a business we have to abide by Workplace regulation. A private farmer (like the one next door) would not.

[iamvff]

And no offense, but none of us have ever responded to a sensless farm accident:rolleyes:

be safe
iamvff

[mikeeps]

Anyway of putting a rope or two over the silo. Anchor off to something on the ground, go over the building and your safety line comes down the side with the doors. You would have to rig something on top so the rope doesn't slide off the side of the silo and prep the edges so it doesn't have any abrasion points. Just a thought!

Michael

[kirk_fredericks]

We did a silo rescue years ago (inside the silo) using a lader truck for the top hard point, but you've pointed out this isn't an option you can consider. We had set up another time for a confined space rescue in a hydro power pipe feeding a power station. In this case, I had a re-bar hard point welded to the pipe back of the opening we would have to enter. A competant welder can definitely give you a hard point good for a two person NFPA shock load. Documenting it is another issue naturally. I'd suggest one or two welded eye loops welded to the structural members at the top of the silo. If this won't work, a less preferable option is a loop of 12.5 rescue rope tied with four equidistant figure eights and joined into a loop with a bomb-proof knot such as a barrel knot, diameter ending up to be 1/2 that of the top to the silo. This is binered to four down-lines tied tight to four hard points at the base. Picture it? Then the safety line(s) biner into the top loop.

[Scuba]

back to the top here a year later......


Toxic - what' you end up doing???

[Toxic]

Blast from the past - but I guess I never followed up. My bad.

We ended up using the rungs inside the silo as an anchor point. A webbing was used, wrapped around a bunch of different rungs. It wasn't perfect but it satisfied the provincial workplace people enough so that we could empty the silo. They are out of service now and slated for demolision. Thanks to all for the input on this one.

[TruckCo11]

The question I have is about the top of the silo. What exactly is the roof or top of it like? I am having a hard time imagining what the entire structure looks like.
The reason being, if your department is active with confined space, or rope rescue, you could consider using a tri-pod, or a Larkin frame in order to give you a high point to secure any rope system to. This usage of course would be dependant upon the structure itself, which is difficult to say for sure without any pictures.
If you have a flat roof, with an access way, the tri-pod could be very effective.

[Scuba]

Or why not just get to posts up there and criss cross the top of the structure? I mean if it's gettin blown up anyway poking some holes in the roof isn't going to hurt it

[iamvff]

I would guess if it is a grain silo, it would have a high pitched sloped top on it, with a fairly small opening at the peak. There is usually an attached ladder to assist a worker to the peak. Prolly has a hole big enough to get a man through, but not if you obstructed it in any way. Just a guess on my part, I am sure Toxic will correct me if I am wrong.

iamvff

[Pike]

Silo's can be tricky, especially the older ones. Rather then offer my advice, I'll point you towards a guru:

Contact Jonh Parish from the Municipal Health and Safety Association (ontario). 613-659-3962

Here's a link and a small background on him.

http://www.betterfarming.com/2005/bf-feb05/feature1.htm

He teaches at the fire college , farm machinery, silo awareness, etc.

He'll have the answers that you're looking for.

Hope this helps

From what i know, Many fire departmens won't go near a silo on fire, some have been know to burn for YEARS once a fire starts inside. A rescue is a little different, silo's have killed many would be rescuers, including firefighters.
Scott

[Toxic]

Yeah silos suck. This was silo not a grain bin - the stuff inside is chopped up and fermented alfalfa. There was no way to use a tripod because of the constuction. Using poles through the concrete block constuction was also no good as there wasn't an engineer in the world that would tell you it would have enough strength. These silos are old, decrepid and without any info on the kind of concrete used there's no way to calculate the strength. This was not an emergency situation but more of a way ton find a solution to get these things emptied.

On the fire ground we have the advantage of haveing the option of using good judgement and experience instead of enginnering studies. Was the concrete stong enough to support the weight of 2 guys? I'm sure if was. But trying to get an enginneer to tell you that is much more complicated...

Silos are dangerous guys. Aside from the fall hazards there is is a serious gaz hazard. Silos produce CO2 which displaces )O2 and toxic CO and NO2 (Nitrogen Dioxide). The first 2 weeks after the silos are filled is the worst as the fermentation process is the most active. During this time anyone entering a silo is dead meat. During the work we did measure NO2 is lower concentrations - but this was around 9 months after it had been filled.
Another hazard more of a concern in a fire is bridging. You can drop a guy down into the silo from the top and he can fall through the top crust into the void underneath.

What I've leant from this is don't underestimate the hazards of silo...

[FF9705]

Years ago here in my hometown, before is was a FF, the dept had a call where a worker had fallen through the crust on top of the grain. he was working up there without being tied off. Needless to say he suffocated within a matter of minutes. He was eventually found in the bottom of the silo in the loading chute. Not really relevant to the original question regarding high angle..but the talk of grain and silo's jogged my memory to that incident.

[iamvff]

Weird...I was reading this thread this afternoon, and my pager went off...had to go for mutual aid for a nieghboring dept. and help with a large grain bin fire. Spent 4 hours there. I dunno...just thought that seemed like an odd coincidence.


OK...so my life isn't that exiting!!?

iamvff