defibrillators

[remya]

We are a volley fire department in Ontario and we have recently acquired a defibrillator. Here is where the fun begins we have been told by our local medical professionals that it will cost us $1000 per fire fighter to be able to use this piece of equipment and $1800 a year there after. Can anyone confirm this?

We just scraped the money together to get the unit now we hear this. Any insight would be helpful

[bcfire]

I HAVE BEEN A VOL FF FOR 7 YEARS NOW,WE RECEIVED A DEFIB FROM A LOCAL BUSINESS SIX YEARS AGO.WE RECERT OUR FIREFIGHTERS THROUGH THE RED CROSS EVERY TWO YEARS WHEN WE RENEW OUR FIRST RESPONDER CERTIFICATES.SOME OF OUR GUYS ARE NOT FIRST RESPONDERS, BUT CAN CERTIFY ON DE-FIB ALONE.HOPE THIS HELPS.

[Firegirl23]

I AM A VOLOUNTEER IN PARRY SOUND AND WE GET OUR RECERTS DONE BY THE INSTUCTORS AT OUR LOCAL AMBULANCE BASE.

[remya]

Since I posted on this subject I have found out that the Red Cross can do it as well at around $100 bucks a pop. Thanks for the replys

[lacapt]

we get our firemedics to recert our people and it does not cost a cent.

[remya]

lacapt,

We are looking to have one or more of our members trained as TF's for this device. I would be much cheaper in the long run.

where are you located?

[lacapt]

Remya, we are located in downtown Leduc Alberta about a stones throw south of Edmonton

[JGallagher]

Where are you getting $1000 use per person? I was trained by the Police for a mere $7.


PS our department dont have defibs.

[wannabe]

I can't believe you guys don't have defibs... as soon as the price comes down I'm buying one for my car!

Red Cross... AED recert every year around here.

Paula

[JGallagher]

Originally posted by wannabe
I can't believe you guys don't have defibs... as soon as the price comes down I'm buying one for my car!

Red Cross... AED recert every year around here.

Paula

Well our department is a combination department. We dont do medical calls. Though we handle all rescue calls.

[ehetu]

Our dept. doesn't do medic calls (yet... council is debating it) but I'm trying to convince the powers that be to get some AEDs -- not for medical calls but for firefighters. Heart attacks are the leading causes of LODD for FFs -- heck, in the US, 6 firefighters die each year during parades. AEDs have proven to close to 75% effective in preventing death if used within the first 3-4 minutes ... vs less than 5% using standard response (CPR + defib when EMT gets there...)

[Whitewater_419]

Word of caution on getting an AED at the hall, if you're not doing medical calls: If the general public finds out you've got one there, there is the possibility that they'll call you on for a cardiac emergency if your response time is markedly faster than EMS - That puts your hall in a rather nasty legal and moral position: What if there's no one trained on the defib available to respond (if you're a volunteer hall) - what if someone does respond but messes up ?

From my understanding of fire halls getting defib equipment, you've got to either commit completely to having everyone trained in it, or not at all.

[remya]

Since my original post we have had everyone at our hall trained to use the AED. The final cost per person was $80 with a yearly re-cert. There were other more expensive ways to be certified but this way fit our budget and did the job.

[wannabe]

The thing is it wouldn't be a super big deal to commit to an AED program. My certification was tacked on to the end of my First Responders course. The recert is a big one day a year commitment and is pretty cheap around here (around $100 or so).

You could have one of your guys become an instructor for crying out loud :)

I come from the point of view of if you're going to do it, do it right. You're right that all members should be certified, which isn't a hard thing. An %80 better chance of survival!! That speaks for it's self. I'd would HATE to show up on a scene to have to do the old thump/ breathe thing when I know I'm not doing everything in my power to help this person. That would eat at me something fierce. That's why I'm seriously going to get one for my car. Same thing.

And as far as messing up. You have to try one of these things. They are D U M M Y proof. The thing talks you through it. It has UNO button. The pads have pretty pictures of where to place them. There is more danger that you forget how to thump and breathe.

[scoop422]

The volunteer fire department in my town does have some certified and some not. So I don't think it is all or nothing unless they are doing it wrong. I believe that everyone should be but recert should be followed with regular training. Even with prompts if you only use it once or twice a year you may not be confident enough to use it.

Also practice your chest thumping because I have seen more NSRs than shockable ones and you may be thumping a long time.

[ehetu]

The kind of pushback I get when talking about AEDs at our firehall is similar ... if we carry it onboard we'll end up being first responders once word gets out. Personally, I don't buy it ... we carry sledgehammers and chain saws too but last time I checked we don't get many requests for barn demolitions. On the other side of the Ottawa River, AEDs are deployed in police cars, schools and all federal public buildings... in general, IMHO, firefighters are better trained for medical emergencies than most people in those fields. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether there exists any legislation facilitating or prohibiting use of AEDs in Quebec.

Ed

[JGallagher]

I hate to burst your bubble but they are not in cars in Qttawa. They are only in 2 cars in Canada they are Mirmichi and Bathurst. Ottawa was the first to have, but at airports!!

[ehetu]

Originally posted by JGallagher
I hate to burst your bubble but they are not in cars in Qttawa. They are only in 2 cars in Canada they are Mirmichi and Bathurst. Ottawa was the first to have, but at airports!!


Don't worry... my bubble is still intact. Ottawa equipped its police cars and many public buildings with AEDs in 2001 -- over 330 of them, in fact. Those defibs are credited with saving 6 lives in the first year. All federal buildings and the House of Commons now have them.

Ed

[SmokeEaterHFD]

We are a volley fire department in Ontario and we have recently acquired a defibrillator. Here is where the fun begins we have been told by our local medical professionals that it will cost us $1000 per fire fighter to be able to use this piece of equipment and $1800 a year there after. Can anyone confirm this?

We just scraped the money together to get the unit now we hear this. Any insight would be helpful

I cant tell you the info about opur departments defib but DCCHam could probably help you out he is in the training commitee and would know all that jazz. I don't think we have to pay 1800 per year though for each firefghter that seems a little ridiculous to me.

[SmokeEaterHFD]

We are a volley fire department in Ontario and we have recently acquired a defibrillator. Here is where the fun begins we have been told by our local medical professionals that it will cost us $1000 per fire fighter to be able to use this piece of equipment and $1800 a year there after. Can anyone confirm this?

We just scraped the money together to get the unit now we hear this. Any insight would be helpful

I cant tell you the info about our defib but DCCHam could help you out he is the head f the training commitee so he could fill you in on our departments policy, but i am pretty sure we dont have to pay 1800$ to use the thing.

[red_dog_six]

These things can be found in local arenas around here. With directions on how to use them in a emergency.
My buddies station got one and now get called for every medical call. Went from 80-90 calls a year to over 300!
Our station hasn't even discussed it yet. I may ask though......

[DCCHam]

We do our training "in house" by one of our Captains who is also a paramedic as well as an instructor. Doesn't cost us a penny. ;)

[irsqyu]

We do our training "in house" by one of our Captains who is also a paramedic as well as an instructor. Doesn't cost us a penny. ;)
Do you not have to work under a base hospital doctor? We are actually working under this doctor's license. We use the train the trainers approach, where base hospital trained our trainers, after that the training is in house.
We are a career department and do tiered response, we use a Zoll SAED , we do SPO2, ECG strips etc, as we usually arrive on scene prior to paramedics and can give them baseline info.
Our City has put Public access defibrillation in all of the facilities, arenas, pools, public buildings etc. The employees at these locations are instructed by fire department instructors.
The defibrillators are well worth having, we have had numerous saves where the patient is still around today.

[PEMS17]

As a BCLS instructor for H&SFC, I can certify anyone in the use of a defib if it is part of their job function. Cost of book and card and my time if I charge. I'm sure any other province has the same set up. Sending 1 or 2 people for BLS instructor training may pay in the long run.

[Buckster]

When we raised our funds for our defib......the regional health sciences corp. kicked in the training for free.....and we have a local medic who does our recerts.....and yes we also have a doc as a "director" and a seperate form that we fill out and send to him whenever we hook it up....there are other depts in the area who were gung ho to get on board as well....well, when I told them they should take the same route, their eyes just kinda glazed over.....dunno if theyre already running around shocking people after going out and buying a defib im not sure....but i sure hope not

[LTPVFD]

We are in the process of acquiring one, or maybe two AED's. Our first responder instructors will be trained to teach the AED protocols. Minimal cost to the department for training, and most of the funds to purchase the AED's have been donated.

Although we do some first medical response calls right now, we only respond to urgent calls if the ambulance is delayed. Having assisted ambulance staff at a few calls where an AED was used (in conjunction with CPR and BVM), the operation is quite simple.

I personally look forward to having another tool in the toolbox that can be used to help save a life.

Stay safe !!


LTPVFD

[AnotherMedic]

Ontario has passed enabling legistlation allowing public access defibrillation and de-regulating defibrillation as a delegated medical act in an "emergency situation". Essentially it is the same criteria as O2 which has a DIN (Drug Identification #) and can only be administered without a physicians order in an "emergency situation".

There is on professional department who has departed from the base hospital system on this basis. They deliver O2 without a physicians order and defib is the same. They would not bare the BH costs and opted to hire a medical consultant instead of affiliate with a BH program. The BH programs in Ontario are in the Ambulance Regulations. The regulation are not the act, but are put in place by the ambulance act. Fire Departments are not covered by the ambulance act or regulations and therefore are NOT required to have a base hosptial program. It was a legacy of the original Ontario FD defib program created in Hamilton by the Hamilton Base Hosptial program, sort of a tradition.

This is how the Red Cross, St. John's etc. offer public access defib training. When you complete one of these courses you are NOT "certified" in defibrillation and have no delegation to perform defibrillation. You can however perform defibrillation in an "emergency situation" if you have training to do so and an AED.

Judging by the cost that was originally quoted to this volly department, I could take a wild guess at which BH program they approached...

[FireEMTGuy]

There are a couple organizations out there, in Alberta anyways, that offer grants to places like Volunteer Departments that offer FULL grants to purchase AED's.

[medic590]

Do you not have to work under a base hospital doctor? We are actually working under this doctor's license. We use the train the trainers approach, where base hospital trained our trainers, after that the training is in house.
We are a career department and do tiered response, we use a Zoll SAED , we do SPO2, ECG strips etc, as we usually arrive on scene prior to paramedics and can give them baseline info.
Our City has put Public access defibrillation in all of the facilities, arenas, pools, public buildings etc. The employees at these locations are instructed by fire department instructors.
The defibrillators are well worth having, we have had numerous saves where the patient is still around today.

In Nova Scotia defibs on longer require a Medical Director. PAD (Public Access Defibrillation) is the lastest rage. Anyone can purchase and use them. AED is now part of the basic CPR program.
My how things have changed.... When I started in 1991 in order to operate an AED we had to have a year working as a medic and do a 40 to 60 hr program with the Medical Director. Now I teach the program in 4 hr!!!!!!

[kriand]

This is how the Red Cross, St. John's etc. offer public access defib training. When you complete one of these courses you are NOT "certified" in defibrillation and have no delegation to perform defibrillation. You can however perform defibrillation in an "emergency situation" if you have training to do so and an AED.

..

It seems to me that if a De-fib is being used at all, then it IS an emergency.

[CdnFyreGuy]

I think they don't want anyone throwing it on (an AED) just to monitor. God forbid, for whatever reason it goes off. I know unlikely...but. That and the average person would have no benefit putting it on as they cant read rythyms anyway.

[five_alarm]

MADOC, ON - A recent story described how new medical equipment has been purchased by the Centre Hastings Fire Department, thanks to a generous donation by the Madoc and District Legion. This included a new, updated model of defibrillator for the Madoc Village department. The old defibrillator, still in excellent condition, has now been donated to the Centre Hastings Medical Centre. It was purchased in 1998 from funds raised through community organizations (including the Legion) and has at least one life saved to its credit. “It’s already paid for itself,” Source: communitypress-online.com (http://www.communitypress-online.com/template.php?id=28380&RECORD_KEY(News)=id&id(News)=28380)