LIVE 8 Concert...

[Michael13]

This classifies as an EVENT... In Barrie Ontario, July 2nd a huge concert is coming. Most of you are probably famililar with the Live 8. ....heres the line up...tics are free and available June 23rd, 10am. That will be quite the event...anyone planning on going??? A truley CANADIAN lineup....I prolly cant go, but if I can get tics, I might just have to cancel present plans. :)

Jann Arden
>Dan Aykroyd (MC)
>Bachman/Cummings Band
>Barenaked Ladies
>Blue Rodeo
>Bryan Adams
>Tom Cochrane
>Bruce Cockburn
>Motley Crue
>Celine Dion (via satellite)
>Great Big Sea
>Gordon Lightfoot
>Our Lady Peace
>Deep Purple
>Sam Roberts
>Simple Plan,
>and last but not least......
>********THE TRAGICALLY HIP******

[Scuba]

Quite the line up - I'm really tempted to get me some tickets :)

[FFWannabe]

That would be an awesome experience! Of course it is to raise awareness for the situation in Africa that the Big Super 8 countries keep forgetting (although the 8 richest, just forgave the debts of the 8 poorest... that's a start). Geldoff has told our PM that he may as not both showing his face at the next G8 Summit without his money in hand to show support for these countries... I agree.
My own thoughts on it... stop sending "help" after the fact and send development aid... Maybe the "Runaway Bride" would like to share her half million dollars for her story with them.. that would only buy a school or twelve, books for every student, a few wells for clean drinking water and drugs to save the lives of enough children to fill those schools!!
But I digress... the concert looks great and is a great idea, very happy to see those with such enormous means doing something spectacular about it!! :)

Sue :)

[wilderness]

THE 8 BIGGEST FORGAVE THE 8 POOREST.... i for god sakes hope Canada didn't give anymore money away.... LETS FIX OUR OWN PROBLEMS IN OUR OWN COUNTRY FIRST...... GOD DAM LIBERAL :mad:

[colin911]

THE 8 BIGGEST FORGAVE THE 8 POOREST.... i for god sakes hope Canada didn't give anymore money away.... LETS FIX OUR OWN PROBLEMS IN OUR OWN COUNTRY FIRST...... GOD DAM LIBERAL :mad:
Yeah, cause hundreds of thousands of HUMAN BEINGS live in poverty. Boy, not much of a humanitarian are you?? I thought we as firefighters wanted to help people (not just one's that live in our neighbourhood). Grow up.

[FFWannabe]

Hundreds of thousands? Try millions... 3 million children die each year of starvation, not floods, or natural disasters, or accidents, they just die because they haven't eaten. With development dollars these conutries could learn to survive and thrive on their own... clean water, education, aeration, etc, maybe then they will not have to sell of their daughters for marriage at the age of 13, to have more babies to secure the family name and work to repay the money they owe to the World Bank (they are constantly forced to rape their crops before they are ready to try to pay back some small part of their debt). The World leaders who keep taking and taking from other countries, owe it to the others to help.. if you're going to rob from the rich, the least you could do it give to the poor... No?
This country doesn't need to be fed and inoculated (of course they need this as well), they need to be taught to fend for themselves and they need the supplies to do it. Education is key over there, not giving them birth control devices!

Eeeeks... see there I go again!! I just can't help myself.

Sue :)

PS - There are far worse humanitarian crises going on in Africa than in other areas where the "world" is "helping" and the World leaders turn a blind eye because there is nothing to be gained from helping.... politically speaking!!

[wilderness]

Try the kids in Canada.....ask how many kids have to be fed at school because there not getting the proper care at home..... how many go to bed hungry......before you go pissing and moaning, look in your back yard carefully.... I care for all, but we have to address the problems here first....... if not we are no better then a third world nation ourselves, you might not agree with what i said, but others do........ If everything was wine and roses here in Canada we wouldn,t have homeless shelters or soup kitchens.....now would we..........

[FFWannabe]

While I agree that it is of the utmost importance to help the people and the children in our own country, I am also very aware of programs that are available, albeit poor and needing to be revamped, there are programs and there are homeless shelters and woman’s shelters and Breakfast programs at schools. I believe that because of the lack of education or lack of access to education we need to take care of our children as a nation and a society and not sit back and ask our government to pay for them to be fed, clothed, and brought up to be just and productive citizens. When there is a breakdown and a child is lost in the cracks, it is not only the parents’ fault, or the Child protection agency’s fault, or the government’s fault; the fault lies with all of us. What is wrong with us as a nation when we can’t stop to help someone and ask that our government take the money out of our pockets at tax time to fix it (and we all know the money rarely ends up where we want it to end up)?
But I digress, again, the issue in Africa is that these people do not have access to programs, to help, to shelters, to breakfast programs… they do not have access to education, clean water, or even the most basic of life’s essentials. As a country, we are not poor, as a country we have been rated one of the top countries to live in for many years. We have clean water, mostly clean air, we are guaranteed personal safety under the law, and we take most of it for granted. Your children will never be sold into slavery, they will never be given to a man as a bride for some food to feed the other children, they will never experience open sores on their mouths from dehydration nor the bloated bellies of hunger. They will never have to bathe where the farmer just washed his ox, or drink the water where the animals defecate.
It’s just not the same world in Africa as it is here. We can’t sit back and say, “Stop having children”, “stop borrowing money”, etc. We cannot expect another country’s problems to be fixed with our solutions… ethnocentricity at its best. We have to look at what they truly need, the true viable solutions to their problems. In this case, that is water, irrigation systems, education and medication. Four essentials that we don’t even think about in our country… the basics of all of these are offered to us for free.

Sorry wilderness, I do respect your opinion of course, but “feed your own” is a very simplistic way of putting on the blinders. We do need to help our own, but the reality is, we do have enough to help our own and others… Compare it to the family next door; you have just enough to feed your family, but the family next door with children has no food at all… would you share or would you let them starve? I don’t know, I guess I just know there are resources enough for everyone if the power hungry would decide it’s okay to “help” a country that isn’t laden with “oil” or other such resources! Know what I’m sayin’?!

Sue :)

[wilderness]

I understand what your saying, but in reality we must fix our own proplems before we help others..... If you don't fix the problem, then maybe you are the problem.... So we as Canadains must help ourselves first before we go and help the others.....
We pay enough taxes each year, and we must put the money in the right places to work, you want to fix the problem over in Africa, get rid of the goverment that is surpressing the people of that Nation........ :rolleyes:

[Scuba]

get rid of the goverment that is surpressing the people of that Nation........ :rolleyes:

You mean they have liberals down there too?

[wilderness]

now thats funny......

[FFWannabe]

I understand what your saying, but in reality we must fix our own proplems before we help others..... If you don't fix the problem, then maybe you are the problem.... So we as Canadains must help ourselves first before we go and help the others.....
We pay enough taxes each year, and we must put the money in the right places to work, you want to fix the problem over in Africa, get rid of the goverment that is surpressing the people of that Nation........ :rolleyes:

get rid of their government? YOu don't think they've tried that? They just had their first free vote election in Ethiopia, it was fixed, a riot erupted and the police shot into the crowd killing at least 26 people. They have tried to get rid of their governments times after time, Nelson Mandella tried to "help" the oppression and ended up in jail, for over 30 years. It's just not that easy. They do not have a democracy like we have, they have free will, as all people do, but are not allowed to express it.
I agree you have to be part of the solution... I do my part, I give monetarily and my time in my own community, but I also help abroad. I could likely have a better car if I didn't.. lol.. but to me, it's about making sure everyone has something!
Like I said, I'm all for making sure our country is well taken care of, especially the children so they are given a good running start at taking care of themselves, but it never hurts to share our good fortune. We are some of the most fortunate people in the world in this country and we often forget it.

Sue :)

[Michael13]

I agree with the whole cause. They have nothing there and need help. When you say that problems here should be fixed first, those people were and are given many chances. Why do some kids go to bed hungry or to school with tattered clothes and empty tummies? Its because its 100 % their parents fault. I am not being prejudice but if mom and dad didnt smoke and drink and be so fricking lazy and get out there a get a job then there kids would have some things and food to eat. There is absoultly NO excuse in Canada for someone to not have a job. 99% unpossible!!! If they choose to sit at home, get drunk and smoke cigarettes, and drugs and dope too, then of course their kids are going to be dum, dirty, and hungry. Now, if one parent is widowed or has a disability or whatever, then its differnt. But all Canadians do have their governements and service groups support. Theres no reason, in my mind that anyone should be living on the street. When I see someone on the street, I think, thats someones child. And then I think it was the parents fault that they are there. If there parents were seriously unable to help, then theres lots of people to turn to. Send the help to the 3rd world countries and lets end the suffering.

[FFWannabe]

I agree with part of what you’re saying there Michael, but there are many other factors involved with homelessness and dirty, hungry kids. I do believe that for some people there is no need to be sitting at home. I see the parents who are too lazy to work or just not educated enough to know the difference, but I’ve also seen the parents who work two jobs and still can’t make ends meet. I used to work three jobs when my daughter was young (when I’m in an interview, the dates are always questioned) I regret not being home as much as I could, but she had everything she needed and that was just as important for me. She has always been a well adjusted, intelligent, active and well fed child! I had a diet of very little at one point to make sure my child had what she needed. I used to take food home from the catering job I did (God rest that man’s soul, he treated me like one of his children)… none of this was because I was poor… it was because I didn’t have a lot of money. Make sense? Being poor is not only the lack of funds, but a state of mind and an unwillingness or inability to persevere and see what lies ahead. Some people think that is all that life has to offer them and can’t see beyond the hard times they are experiencing. They become a “victim” of their circumstance. They do not realize they are being victimized by their own thought processes, they just give up and accept what they think life has offered them.
There’s also mental illness, lack of social and economic mobility (ability to move up a class level, many just move down when they hit hard times or give up), but the biggest kicker, is lack of education. If you can’t afford school and you can’t get a student loan, then what do you do, what are you left with? But I don’t want to get too far off topic!
Can you tell I spend a lot of time thinking about this kind of thing. This is what I want to be able to do more of when I am in uniform. I always say I love the thought of working my butt off and having the anonymity of the uniform…. But when you take me out of the group, I will have visibility with the uniform and I will use that to talk with kids at the Boys and Girls Club, get into schools, women’s shelters, etc. I know my Dad’s new wife was very inspirational for me. She raised two kids (with the help of her mother) at a young age, she got herself out of an abusive drunken relationship and became a nurse, then a probation officer, then a woman’s rights and aboriginal rights speaker, and now a teacher. She has done everything she has set out to do one step at a time. I just want people, especially women and children, to know there is More… there’s always more… it’s out there for everyone they just have to reach for it or accept that someone wants to help them get it.

Okay…. Getting waaaaay off topic… sorry about that.

Yes, I wish I could get to Live 8, Barrie isn’t far, but I just don’t think it’s feasible. I think Bob Geldoff is doing an amazing thing for this world. We have become so small globally, and getting smaller everyday, it’s time we start to think more globally… not just what we can get from the other countries, but what we can give back. Canadians are the exception to the rule, we are one of the biggest countries, the rest of the world thinks we’re “nice” and we can take this opportunity to really make a difference. We’ve long been known as the humanitarians, not the power seekers… we should continue to show the world that it’s okay to stop taking for a minute and give to fellow humans.

Blah, blah, blah… someone kick me off this soapbox please!!!
Sue

[five_alarm]

The organizers of Live 8 have released some rules and other things you need to know for the big concert on Saturday at Park Place in Barrie.

For the safety of all attending Live 8 the following items are not allowed into Park Place:

- no umbrellas or lawn chairs
- no professional cameras, videos or audio recording devices
- no alcohol, cans or bottles or hard sided coolers
- no object that can be used as a projectile
- no re-entry once you are in the park.

Bring your sunscreen
- 1 sealed bottle of water of any size is allowed
- back packs with a change of clothes and blankets are allowed
- bank machines will be on site

Show goes rain or shine! Park Place is located in Barrie, Ontario. Main gates off Bayview Dr. direct access from highway 400. Alternate routes: highway 27 north or highway 11 north.

Overnight parking will be available. Note: this is overnight parking and not overnight camping.

Source: 680news.com (http://www.680news.com/news/local/article.jsp?content=20050628_115223_2900)

[smoke286]

Your talking apples and oranges. Canada is one of the wealthiest country's in the world. If people are living in poverty it is because of a need for redistribution of wealth. In third world countries thousands are dying daily, literally starving to death, as greedy as we are most Canadians would not allow that to happen in our country

[FFWannabe]

Your talking apples and oranges. Canada is one of the wealthiest country's in the world. If people are living in poverty it is because of a need for redistribution of wealth. In third world countries thousands are dying daily, literally starving to death, as greedy as we are most Canadians would not allow that to happen in our country

You just summed up my exact feelings on the matter!

Sue :)

[FFWannabe]

I'm watching U2 in London right now... oh man, they are amazing performers... they did Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart Club with Paul McCartney as the sound check!! I wish I was in London! They showed the crowds in each city, it's amazing (although, unless they showed Barrie first, they forgot about us)! I hope this concert does what it sets out to do. This message took me about three minutes to write and in that time 60 children died of starvation. Senseless.

Sue :cool:

PS - If I could please be 17 again for a moment.... The Edge is soooo HOT!!! hahaha! That's him beside my name! ;)

[FFWannabe]

http://www.live8live.com/fcgi/live8.fcgi

Sue :)

[smoke286]

Watching also on the internet Sue, seeing our local station decided not to broadcast it

[FFWannabe]

Watching also on the internet Sue, seeing our local station decided not to broadcast it

how can they choose not to broadcast it... that's really too bad! I'm watching it on CTV, not sure which city, it's on the dish!! :) I have to leave for a little while and I'm sad I'll miss it! Did you see Will Smith? The worldwide snap brought me to tears. Sheesh, I hope this day helps.. what an amazing effort!!

Go Live 8!!!!

Sue :)

[smoke286]

The local station here, an independant affiliate of CTV apparently chose not to show it. Hence I'm watching it from London instead on the internet, looking forward to Pink Floyd and The Who later on tonite

[FFWannabe]

The local station here, an independant affiliate of CTV apparently chose not to show it. Hence I'm watching it from London instead on the internet, looking forward to Pink Floyd and The Who later on tonite

Oooh, oooh, ooooh, I just watched them!!! Wooowwwww!!! Amazing! How is it that Pink Floyd hasn't played publicly together for over 20 years and they completely rocked!!! the Who was also amazing and Motley Crue wasn't so bad either! The older bands seem to have it all over the newer groups! Funny, eh? Although, I completely enjoyed Jet, they have a very modernish 70's sound! Love that!!!

Sue :)

[double0seven]

Hey smoke,
Just watched the whole thing on CTV. Floyd rocked, they are still amazing, The Hip just rocked Barrie, they will be in Newfoundland in a few weeks by the way...cough, but in all seriousness these concert are great and for a great cause, I personaly belive that the world has turned it's back on Africa for way too long. Hopefully this will open some peoples eyes. What the worst that can happen? They are not asking for money, and they are letting people rock out!

[smoke286]

They had a big well publicised falling out around 83. Roger Waters, who wrote almost all the lyrics and much of the music left the band. They were never the same after that. This is the first time seeing them all back together

[smoke286]

I thought The Who seemed a tad flat, still I love the old codgers. Pete was blistering as always.

[Whitewater_419]

I'm with Wilderness on this one and not just 'cuz I'm on his crew;

I've done the homeless thing (some rather stupid choices as a teen ager)

I've done the poverty thing. (Same as above, but add a couple of years)

I am the parent of a _severely_ handicapped young boy and a diabetic young girl (Type I)

I've seen first-hand how _OUR_ poor are treated on the streets, in hospitals and in society in person - I don't mean "poor" as in "oh, I can't make my car payment this month" - I mean *poor* as in "I don't have enough money for any food for my kids this week, I'm three months behind in my rent and there's been an eviction notice on my door for the past 30 days with today as the deadline to pay or move".

Canada may well be one of the richest nations on Earth, but that does _NOT_ mean that all of our citizens are rich - not by a long, LONG shot.

"Redistribution of wealth" ? Let's not pussy foot around with words, here, ladies and gentlemen - That's communism/Marxism. Read your history books! Communism works - on paper. It has NEVER, EVER worked in an actual human population - EVER. There's a reason for this, people and it is a simple one: The human factor. The plain fact of the matter is that there will ALWAYS be rich people: There will ALWAYS be poor people. There will ALWAYS be haves and have-nots.

There will also ALWAYS be good guys and bad guys - it is for this simplified reason that we will ALWAYS need guns, armies, police forces, etc.

It's all too easy to spout off with the politically correct tripe of "Lets share our wealth with those less fortunate" - and we do - both on a governmental level as well as a personal level - but let's not forget, folks, that we may well be one of the wealthiest nations on Earth, but WE, CANADIANS, are also the HIGHEST TAXED NATION ON _EARTH_.

Anyone who spends a moment to actually _think_ about this, rather than blather on about how we should send billions MORE to impoverished countries realizes that many, MANY of our (Canadian) poor are poor specifically because we are so heavily taxed. Our population, more than 65% of it, resides within 150 kilometers of the US border, in major urban centres (Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver) - Have you looked at the housing prices in any of those cities, recently ?

Sure, it's easy to say "Move somewhere cheaper" - but how many of the Canadian poor can afford to simply pick up and leave their friends, family and only support network they know, just to go live somewhere cheaper? Of course, this also begs the mind-numbingly obvious question: How are the staggeringly poor people supposed to _afford_ the move itself ? (It's a viscious, catch-22 circle!)

I'm all for sending a reasonable amount of aid to the have-nots of the world, but that should be by personal choice of our citizens - Our personal donation levels are _also_ amongst the highest in the world, too - We do _not_ need our government taking tax dollars, of which they both have too much and waste too much - and giving it away to the third world.

Think about this the next time you're forced to drive your thirty year old tanker to the next call. Or the next time you can't have a RIT team on standby because there aren't enough BA's to even equip a RIT team. Or the next time you can't fill your ranks back up to full because there isn't any money to buy new bunker gear.

Where does all the money go, eh ? Remember the simplest rule of taxation: There are many, many taxes, but only one tax-payer. We, as a whole, are already at our limit with regards to the taxes and fees we pay. For most Canadians, taxes and unavoidable fees and charges take out more (MUCH more) than 50% of our pay.

Yeah, keep on advocating to give more and more and more to the third-world without first taking care of our own: It's a slippery slope from being a first-world country to a second-world one.

Sorry to rant, but I've seen first-hand how our tax dollars have been wasted by the millions and billions - Giving more to the third world when a large amount of it is going to end up in the hands of a corrupt few whilst we have the poor and dying in our own country suffering is simply shooting one's own nose off to spite the face. (Or worse; Making the donations for political value near election time when you KNOW the money isn't going to help!)

[FFWannabe]

I won't pretend not to be insulted. I most certainly do not consider what I have had to say to be "blathering on". I have informed ideas and compassion for every human on this planet, and I don't think where they were born should determine whether they get to eat or simply starve until they simply cease to live.
I too have been poor, I have had late rent, bounced cheques, driven a 25 year old beater or no car and barely been able to feed my child (and ate crackers for weeks in order to make sure she had food). I did not get there completely by choice or foolish decisions. I got there because I am a single mother and worked very hard to make ends meet so I would not become one of those "burdens on society." I saw the end of Jobs Ontario which got rid of my home daycare grants adding another bill to the pile. I don't think that people saying our country is rich is an over statement. Our poor are poor because they cannot get the help they need, yes, but our government had almost a $300 billion surplus last year!! By re-distribution of wealth, I would never consider communism, but possibly less tax grants or tax shelters to the rich so this money can be put back into social programs for those who need it. I have also walked 19 blocks to work every day handing out water bottles and hot chocolate (because I happened to have a few extra dollars a paycheque and decided it was worth it) to the homeless. I see autistic kids who can't get the proper education or medication or treatment because there is no funding for that particular age group, and I watched my grandmother slowly die because she was put on a four month waiting list for quadruple bypass surgery and then became too weak to be able to have it. I also live in Ottawa on a meager salary and I do know that moving elsewhere to save money makes very little sense because there are extra costs incurred or lower pay.... there IS always part of that catch 22 and I have spent a very long time trapped right in the middle of it, but I refuse to admit that's where I will stay or where I belong!
I do not turn a blind eye to our own poor, I do not pretend that it does not exist, and I don't pretend to have more money than I do (I am technically not too far above the poverty level), but I make it work and I do my best to help others in the mean time.
I don't think it helps anyone to argue about it either. Some of us will accept what we feel is our responsibility and try to help out in any way we can, and others will feel it is not their responsibility. I would never say that either person is wrong or right, it's a matter of priority, but I do think we need to respect each other's points of view. I would never say you are "blathering on" or not thinking about the whole situation because of your views and I accept that yours are different.

Sue

[Whitewater_419]

I won't pretend not to be insulted.


My post was not directed at you, personally - if you took offence to it - <shrug> what can I say ? It was a general response to the politically correct "blathering" of "let's send billions MORE to poor nations without first taking care of Canadians who need it."


I most certainly do not consider what I have had to say to be "blathering on". I have informed ideas and compassion for every human on this planet, and I don't think where they were born should determine whether they get to eat or simply starve until they simply cease to live.
I too have been poor, I have had late rent, bounced cheques, driven a 25 year old beater or no car and barely been able to feed my child (and ate crackers for weeks in order to make sure she had food). I did not get there completely by choice or foolish decisions. I got there because I am a single mother and worked very hard to make ends meet so I would not become one of those "burdens on society." I saw the end of Jobs Ontario which got rid of my home daycare grants adding another bill to the pile. I don't think that people saying our country is rich is an over statement. Our poor are poor because they cannot get the help they need, yes, but our government had almost a $300 billion surplus last year!!

I'd like to see the numbers for a 300 billion surplus!

According to http://www.fin.gc.ca/news04/04-065e.html
the surplus for 2003-2004 was 9.1 billion.

Our national debt at the end of 2004 (the latest I could find figures for) was 501.5 billion dollars. A 300 billion surplus would be nearly one _third_ of our GDP!!!


By re-distribution of wealth, I would never consider communism, but possibly less tax grants or tax shelters to the rich so this money can be put back into social programs for those who need it.


Sigh. Fine - On one hand you're talking about reducing tax-shelters and grants for the corporate and individually rich and re-investment in social programs for Canadians that need it, but you _also_ seem to be advocating for sending even _more_ of our tax dollars to third world nations. You _do_ know that we already send 3.5 % of our GDP to poor nations, right ? Thats a _LOT_ of money.


I have also walked 19 blocks to work every day handing out water bottles and hot chocolate (because I happened to have a few extra dollars a paycheque and decided it was worth it) to the homeless. I see autistic kids who can't get the proper education or medication or treatment because there is no funding for that particular age group, and I watched my grandmother slowly die because she was put on a four month waiting list for quadruple bypass surgery and then became too weak to be able to have it. I also live in Ottawa on a meager salary and I do know that moving elsewhere to save money makes very little sense because there are extra costs incurred or lower pay.... there IS always part of that catch 22 and I have spent a very long time trapped right in the middle of it, but I refuse to admit that's where I will stay or where I belong!

Good for you and - join the club. However, with even more of our tax dollars being sent overseas to other nations, that means a shortfall in our tax coffers that need to be made up elsewhere. You wanna send a billion _more_ to Africa? Where's that billion going to come from ?

Our military? - N'uh unh - already been cut to the bone to the point where Canada is not self-sufficient in terms of self-defence and wide-spread national disaster.

Our health-care budget? N'uh unh - The baby boomer gereration are now into their golden years, adding a never-before-seen stress on our health-care system, in addition to the everyday needs of our citizens.

Our agriculture budget? N'uh unh - it was already cut several times this year and _still_ we have thousands of farmers (you know - the people that grow the food that we find so conveniently packaged at Loblaws) either living in poverty or getting out of the business altogether.

Our science and technology research budget? N'uh unh - Already cut to the bone where the Canadian brain drain is at an all-time high.

So where are we going to get all this extra money to send _even more_ to Africa and the like ? Raise taxes ? BWWAHHAhaHAHahHAhaHHAHAHAHHahHAHhaHAhAa. (*sniff*) BWAHAHHAHahAhhHahAHhaHAAHHhAaa.

Don't forget that half a trillion dollar debt - it's not like that is a static number. Ever heard of the term "debt servicing charges" ? The sources that lent that money (be it foreign nations, banks or the issuance of bonds) certainly doesn't lend that money to Canada for free.

Ever had a credit card with a thousand dollar limit maxed out and made only the minimum payments ? The total amount owing doesn't get smaller very quickly, now, does it ?

Now imagine that credit card, but in the space where it says "Total amount due" it reads:

500,000,000,000.00

You can do the math on what interest and "debt servicing charges" does to that number when it's ignored or under-paid for any length of time.


I do not turn a blind eye to our own poor, I do not pretend that it does not exist, and I don't pretend to have more money than I do (I am technically not too far above the poverty level), but I make it work and I do my best to help others in the mean time.
I don't think it helps anyone to argue about it either. Some of us will accept what we feel is our responsibility and try to help out in any way we can, and others will feel it is not their responsibility. I would never say that either person is wrong or right, it's a matter of priority, but I do think we need to respect each other's points of view. I would never say you are "blathering on" or not thinking about the whole situation because of your views and I accept that yours are different.


You apparantly took my general words personally when I said "blathering on" - But, and I am truly sorry if this causes you offence, but you quoting of a surplus of 300 billion is evidential of where so many people think it's easy to simply throw more of our tax dollars to other nations. We _ALREADY_ give them a lot. A _WHOLE_ lot. More money than you or I will ever see in our entire life times.

The sad fact of the matter is that there are MILLIONS of Canadians living in poverty and therefore more susceptible to violence, drug abuse, crime, so on and so forth that even a portion of that extra money that people want us to send overseas would make a *huge* difference.

How many Canadians in poverty, you might ask ?

How about 4,886,000 in 1999 alone?
"Oh, those are old numbers!" you might say.
In 1990, those numbers were 4,181,000 - in other words, the number of Canadians living in poverty are going UP!
(Source: http://www.ccsd.ca/factsheets/fs_pov9099.htm )

That's not a small number - that's just over sixteen percent of our entire population living in or at poverty levels. Keep in mind, too, that these numbers also don't take very accurately into account those who are unreportable - those living on the streets with no T4's to file to indicate their poverty level.

We should remember one more fact: Many, many of Canada's poor were once (or are still, in the case of the working poor) tax-payers - How evil is it to take money from these people who have so little but _did_ (or _still do_) work hard to contribute to the tax base and give it away to those in other countries ?

Finally, I am not, nor have I ever, advocated for the elimination of foreign aid - However, the number of poor and suffering in Canada continues to go UP every year.

As Wilderness said, we need to take care of our own backyard before focusing too heavily on those of others, lest we find we have no backyard at all in the all too near future.

[smoke286]

Whitewater, I'm sorry but I'm afraid you are talking apples and oranges Poverty in Canada means living below the poverty line, which IIRC is somewhere around 21,000 per year. These people in the affected areas in Africa are starving to death by the thousands. I have been doing this for a long time and I have never run accross anyone staving to death in this country.

Whatever you might say Canada is one of the richest countries in the world, if we don't do our fair share who will?

[Whitewater_419]

Whitewater, I'm sorry but I'm afraid you are talking apples and oranges Poverty in Canada means living below the poverty line, which IIRC is somewhere around 21,000 per year.


The poverty line in Canada fluctuates depending on where you live. In an urban area, the poverty line can be as high as $35,000 a year, whereas in a rural area, the poverty line can be as low as $14,000 a year - and yet we *still* have over 16 percent of Canadians who cannot properly feed and clothe themselves.

According to Statistics Canada (URL in the post above), there were 4,886,000 Canadians living in poverty in 1999 alone - a number that continues to go up. That's more than entire populations of some African countries.


These people in the affected areas in Africa are starving to death by the thousands. I have been doing this for a long time and I have never run accross anyone staving to death in this country.


<shrug> Just because you haven't seen it personally, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Not only do we have Canadians dying by starvation (admittedly, not in the numbers that third world countries do), we also have Canadians dying from neglect and exposure. Pick up a Toronto newspaper in the winter and look for stats on homeless freezing to death. Take a look at statistics for food banks and you'll see that most of them are constantly below the minimum levels required to provide *basic* calorie requirements for the people they serve.


Whatever you might say Canada is one of the richest countries in the world, if we don't do our fair share who will?

That's just it - Canada *already* provides 3.5% of our GDP for poverty assistance to other nations already - that's three and a half percent of a TRILLION dollars. (Not billion - not million - but a TRILLION )

It's not just poverty where our country so desperately needs re-investment, either. Something a little closer to home, for example: Apparently, our own budget was cut by something like $20K-$30K, funding for special needs children was cut (again) this year. Funding for MRI's and dialysis treatment - cut again in many cities. Funding for agriculture - cut again. Funding for medical stockpiling in case of epidemic - cut - so on and so forth. There's a *lot* that needs to be done for Canadians, still.

[dentedhead]

<shrug> Just because you haven't seen it personally, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Not only do we have Canadians dying by starvation (admittedly, not in the numbers that third world countries do), we also have Canadians dying from neglect and exposure. Pick up a Toronto newspaper in the winter and look for stats on homeless freezing to death. Take a look at statistics for food banks and you'll see that most of them are constantly below the minimum levels required to provide *basic* calorie requirements for the people they serve. Quote Whitewater419.



I have tried to avoid this issue as it will end up like the last political thread....going around in circles.

Whitewater I commend you for getting your shit together and getting back on track.

I am a very firm believer in hand up not hand out.Not to sound like a broken record but all the years I spent in TO really opened my eyes to human nature.While there are many working poor who are trying their damndest to get ahead there are just as many who dont want help because there are too many rules attached.I have personally heard statements made by these people saying just that.

I have also heard infuriating staements about having to reduce cable TV packages because welfare was going to be cut unless you participated in workfare.Nothing better than seeing someone in subsidized housing with children who would rather go to bingo than buy food for the kiddies then have the gall to complain about food bank selection.

Have i ever seen a death from true starvation? No. I have seen children die from neglect but they were well fed of course they were surrounded by the latest electronic gadgets.

As someone said apples and oranges these people are dying not just from starvation but disease, malaria is the current killer.They have no food bank they have no free healthcare or subsidized housing They dont have the option of saying no thanks I dont want any help because its not there.

The key is making sure that the help get to those that need it and not the corrupt government running these countries.

Dentedhead

[smoke286]

The key is making sure that the help get to those that need it and not the corrupt government running these countries.

I agree, giving money to some of these regimes would be a total waste.

[scoop422]

Very well put DH.