Magnesium Fires

[lharrity]

has anyone had any problems with Magnesium fires? Also, I am aware that some SUV's and newer cars contain a fair amount of Mg. i was wondering if anyone has had problems with extinguishing these fires and what there best method was....overwhelming it with water using an extinguisher?

[iamvff]

has anyone had any problems with Magnesium fires? Also, I am aware that some SUV's and newer cars contain a fair amount of Mg. i was wondering if anyone has had problems with extinguishing these fires and what there best method was....overwhelming it with water using an extinguisher?

You CANNOT use water on a magnesium fire. My understanding is that it will/can cause a violent reaction and can explode or errupt! I have only read it in text books, so correct if I am wrong, Magnesium would fall under a class D fire, and you would need to apply a special dry powder to it in order to extinguish it. I do not know the name of the powder, but any fire extinguisher maintenance, or fire sales business should be able to help. Also, the same powder does not necessarily work for all metal fires! There are different applications for different types of metals! Hope this helps a bit...even more so...hope I am close to being right!!

Have a good one,
iamvff :)

[lharrity]

im well aware that magnesium reacts to water in a violent manner...however in small amounts it can be overcome by large amounts of water...in the case of a car engine, there isn't really a whole lot. Most units in the area that i work do not carry the proper powder used to extinguish such fires. On my level 2 we were told to either over power it from a distance or just let it burn out on its own...i was hoping someone might have been in a situation like this...so i can see what the real take is on it.

[LTPVFD]

I have never dealt with a magnesium fire, but the advice given during your FF2 sounds right. Contain the fire with large amounts of water, from a distance, to ensure everyone's safety. If it is a vehicle that is burning, it is going to be a write off anyway.

Stay safe !!


LTPVFD

[LFD_FF17]

what about foam?

[dentedhead]

im well aware that magnesium reacts to water in a violent manner...however in small amounts it can be overcome by large amounts of water...in the case of a car engine, there isn't really a whole lot. Most units in the area that i work do not carry the proper powder used to extinguish such fires. On my level 2 we were told to either over power it from a distance or just let it burn out on its own...i was hoping someone might have been in a situation like this...so i can see what the real take is on it.

Not just SUVs I had a newer Ford forget what it was one of those lil european inspired buckets.It was fully involved interior,paint, engine compartment etc.It had the telltale glow of magnesium in several spots.I asked my much more experienced and knowledgable partner about it while we were setting up and he basically said just hit with lots of water to knock the whole fire down,his explanation afterwards was that in small concentrated amounts of metals such as mag water or foam is fine.It will still crackle and pop but its not as dangerous as a large dense amount.A larger fire involving magnesium....whole new ball game.

Dentedhead

[Toxic]

I don't have experience with Mg fires except for one incident where we had some "warm" rims.

However I know that magnesium powder is water reactive and can ignite on contact with water. Basically it will evolve hydrogen on contact with water, get hot and possibly ignite. This is where you'd want to use a class D extinguisher. As a solid chunk Mg is stable and not water reactive.

I think the concern with Mg fires (not in powder or flake form) is that the Mg burns so hot that adding water cools it too fast and will cause it to "splash".

Please someone correct me if I'm off track.

[smoke286]

has anyone had any problems with Magnesium fires? Also, I am aware that some SUV's and newer cars contain a fair amount of Mg. i was wondering if anyone has had problems with extinguishing these fires and what there best method was....overwhelming it with water using an extinguisher?

Keep in mind most chain saws also contain magnesium, somthing you might consider if you get a call to a hardware store or small engine repair shop

[wilderness]

We have a mag plant, close to our area, we get tours all the time, they use dry sand, i repeat dry sand, no moisture what so ever.....

[Kearley]

I don't have experience with Mg fires except for one incident where we had some "warm" rims.

However I know that magnesium powder is water reactive and can ignite on contact with water. Basically it will evolve hydrogen on contact with water, get hot and possibly ignite. This is where you'd want to use a class D extinguisher. As a solid chunk Mg is stable and not water reactive.

I think the concern with Mg fires (not in powder or flake form) is that the Mg burns so hot that adding water cools it too fast and will cause it to "splash".

Please someone correct me if I'm off track.


I'm not a firefighter. But my history is in Chemistry.
Basically Mg reacts with H2O to form MgO and H2; Magnesium oxide and Hydrogen Gas. The formation of MgO is a reaction which is very dependant upon the surface area available for the reaction, so a solid chunk who cares, powder scary.
FOAM simply breaks the surface tension of water so it will not bead upon substances and can more effectively "wet" a material. Problem, is that it will increase the reaction rate with metals, because it will be free to mingle amongst the metal molecules.
So in short you have:
Burning metal: Magnesium + Air Oxygen = Magnesium oxide and heat

Disolving metal: Magnesium + water = Magnesium oxide + less heat + hydrogen gas.

[Kearley]

Sorry, I don't make much sense to myself. But this is right

We have a mag plant, close to our area, we get tours all the time, they use dry sand, i repeat dry sand, no moisture what so ever.....

water will only speed up the fire. It doesn't add more fuel, just speeds up the fuel that's there.

[Toxic]

I'm not a firefighter. But my history is in Chemistry.
So in short you have:
Burning metal: Magnesium + Air Oxygen = Magnesium oxide and heat

Disolving metal: Magnesium + water = Magnesium oxide + less heat + hydrogen gas.

Screw Canutec. Post your hazmat questions on Firehall.com. All the same technical info and no busy signals. :D

[Kearley]

LOL... I said sorry!

Sorry,

[berwynFD]

We were at a mutual aid call to a body shop last month. It was on the ground when we got there. I was watering the coals from the curb, we were hoping to get it out before the nieghbours came to work. The IC didn't laugh when I said "watch this". I shot a stream into a spot where some combustable metal were. The sparks flew about four feet in the air. They burned themselves out.

Don't worry, everone was way outside the collapse zone, and the metals were near the middle of the building.

[firefighter26]

I have been on the nozzle for a handfull of vehicles fires involving Magnesium. They certainly are entertaining! Basically, when the water hits the Magnesium it looks a lot like a fireworks show!

I remember the first one I did, when we came back around to hit the engine compartment, it flared out the front of the vehilce and the probie backing me up jumped a good five feet off the ground!

I don't have a ton of knowledge about chemical compounds, but I know for the few that I have been in on, lots of water and foam (foam has been our standard attack line for vehicle fires for five years now) has proved to be enough to knock it down. Usually the best course of action, however, is to knock the bulk of the fire down and avoid the magnesium area until last and either try to drown it fast and hard, or let it cool and burn itself out.

The last one we tried to drown took about 2500 gallons, which is about 2200 more than a regular vehicle should fire take!

I have attached some pictures I had on file that I had e-mailed to me showing an actual call in the states. Southern Floride I believe, not exactly sure of the department or the photographer. It shows a vehicle on fire as the Engine rolls up, and also how the magnesium "Fireworks" look when water is applied.

Enjoy!

[wilderness]

Was that second picture taken on the 4th. of July? :cool:

[FireChef]

Here a a couple I got from Firehouse.com of a magnesium fire in Indiana. Being the other ones I was going to post, I see that firefighter26 beat me to it

[firefighter26]

I couldn't remember were I got those from, but they make good training aids (that's my firefightist trainingitis kicking it again!)

[Buckster]

When talking about a fire in a vehicle, when we ran into it a few times we just grabbed some shovels and smothered it with dirt

[spigot]

I have only attended one fire which was a training fire involving an old Seasprite Naval helicopter.

We had the chopper to burn so thats what we did and when it came to the magnesium rims that it had (rims not skids as this was Naval), we used a foam branch and hit it straight on (from the appropriate angle etc so not to be in the hazard area for those ARFF's out there), yes it made some noises that put the shits up us and it shattered (did not expolde showering us in molten metal like some would have you believe) but copius amounts of water and foam dealt to it nicely.
I don't know about you but who carries sand at the ready for such fires?
I know we don't and unless you have the risk in your turn out area which would have to be in great quantities that if that was the case, the place it is stored/manufactured would have the appropriate extinguishing media on hand.

[TomC]

Just completed Magnesium Fire Awareness training last week through Team 1. Had the pleasure of seeing a small Mg fire extinguished using a Class D Extinguisher. We were able to light a small pile of Mag chips and shavings outside in the freezing rain using a propane torch with about 45 sec. of direct flame contact. The Class D worked well but would only be appropriate for small fires. The pressure in a Class D extinguisher is far less than one might expect (compared to a Class ABC) and you need to stand within an arms reach of the fire to effectively cover the Magnesium. Real world scenario, I would be looking for large volumes of water.

[hfdfirejr]

i know that magnesium fires are very dangerous as is most fires but some newer cars contain magnesium dont they ....and i think there should be more training on this whats every one else think?

[ABFF37]

I've had a few run ins with magnesium over the years. Usually it's been car fires, a couple of times it's been garage fires with a car inside that had magnesium wheels or something. A bit of water on them will cause some fireworks, for the most part I've just let them burn themselves out, contain the fire as a whole and just go from there.

If you're dealing with a little bit of magnesium on a car I don't think you neen to be too worried about it, I mean extra cautious yes, but it's not that big a deal.

However, if you're dealing with an industrial setting, or a larger scale incident you definately need, as others have said, a special class D extinguishing agent, often sodium chloride applied with an extinguisher as a dry powder to coat the affected magnesium.

One thing to keep in mind if you have a whole warehouse of magnesium on fire to deal with...consider your local airport firefighting crew. Aircraft use a lot of magnesium (as well as a lot of other flammible metals) and therefore the fire crews trained to deal with them have the appropriate class of extinguishing agents to handle the situation. Perhaps they may be able to assist you if the need should arrise. I know on a few odd ocassions our airport guys have been called into town to help out with a situation where they have the more effective tools and training to get things under control.

AB

[Proby]

Had this conversation with my chief the other day. I'm a industrial FF , we were talking about car fires and how some of them can be very hard to kill. He gave me a piece of information that may help you.. He said with the new cars and the amount of flammable metals contained in them a effective way to kill a hot one is have a FF place a dry chem extinguisher directly in the water path and fire away. the dry chem will mix with the water and will penetrate the fire deep. He has seen this done and he has done it in training. Says it works great.

[irsqyu]

Had this conversation with my chief the other day. I'm a industrial FF , we were talking about car fires and how some of them can be very hard to kill. He gave me a piece of information that may help you.. He said with the new cars and the amount of flammable metals contained in them a effective way to kill a hot one is have a FF place a dry chem extinguisher directly in the water path and fire away. the dry chem will mix with the water and will penetrate the fire deep. He has seen this done and he has done it in training. Says it works great.


Thanks for the input Proby, that's a very interesting concept, and seems to make good sense!!

[spigot]

Hi ya,
yes, having Dry Powder mixing with a delivery on fog does work, we use that technique for aircraft engine fires that are out of control but still contained in the nacelle.
There is a bit of technique to it, you don't just put the DP hose into the fog and go for it, you need to put it in to one side and have it swirl with the air that is being drawn into the fog, this is what spreads the DP.
When done properly it's very effective, but it's not easy to master.
On a car fire which is well involed I don't think this method would be the best to use. (my opinion)
It works well on aircraft engine fires because they are contained in the Nacelle.
A vehicle that has it's windows smashed etc would have too many exits for the DP to escape from.
I have found hitting the car with High Pressure is more then suffice, you could always hit it with a High Pressure to knock the major fire and then use a DP to make it into places that you may not have reached with the High Pressure but this is a bit of overkill I think.
I guess you can only try with the DP and a delivery on a vehicle but why not just stand back and let rip with large quantities of water and save the DP for more important matters like putting the hose under the toilet door and filling it up when the probies in there? :)

[firesmith]

Air Craft Brake systems are made of magnesium as well. Hot Brakes are a common call but it takes alot of heat to start a fire. If it does start our first line of attack is to hit is hard with Purple K dry Chem agent. It is very effective but consider we carry a 500lb load of PK per truck. With an involved car fire we have never had an instance were water or foam didnt or couldnt do the job.

[spigot]

I just don't see the point in wasting the DP on a simple car fire, even if it does have limited Magnesium in it.
It's not worth the hassle of refilling the DP cylinder, getting that crap everywhere all for a little car fire.
Plus it's too expensive to waste like that, when all you need to do is hit with a delivery and fill up from a hydrant, simple.

[firefighter26]

And if you're a rural FD with no hydrants and 15-20 minute tender/tanker turn around times?

Its another tool in the tool box. Make it wouldn't/shouldn't be used every car fire with magnesium, but it is still handy to have alternatives available it Plan A, B, C, don't work (anyone notice the pun in there?).

I for one am interesting in the idea and would like to know more. Is there any litterature on this tactic available, etc?

[spigot]

I don't know how your appliances are set up where you are but a Rural appliance here has around 2800lts on board of water, a City pump has 1350 lts, weve never needed 1350 lts of water to extinguish a car fire.
So I would presume it can be done with ample water to spare on the Rural appliance.
But, like you say, it's another tool in the kit and you can never have too many tools!
Regarding DP/Fog branch delivery, if you know of any Royal Air Force Firefighters, they would be the ones to speak to.
That's where we got the technique from, from their Fire School over there.
I know of an Instructor living here now so I can track down some litterature for you if you like.

Cheers.

[firefighter26]

Our engine carrys 500 gallons (someone will have to do the gal. to lt. conversion for me). I can honestly say that there have only been two vehicle fires I have been to in my time that we have needed more than the onboard water; both times were very 'unique' events.

[Waterboy57]

Well to my understanding you can use class D foam because it smothers the fire thats why you use it in car engines. I might be wrong I'm just learning too.

[spigot]

Hi ya,
what the heck is Class D Foam?
I may have been taught differently but I am sure Class D is Flammable Metals / Metal Alloys i.e. combustible metals such as magnesium, potassium, and sodium.

Do you mean Class B Foam i.e A.F.F.F and F.F.F.P?
Last I knew Class B was Flammable liquids i.e. oils, petrol, and grease.

[dentedhead]

Possible confusion between class D foam and class D fire.

Dentedhead

[iamvff]

Our engine carrys 500 gallons (someone will have to do the gal. to lt. conversion for me). I can honestly say that there have only been two vehicle fires I have been to in my time that we have needed more than the onboard water; both times were very 'unique' events.

1Gallon = 4.5 ltrs
1000G = 4500 ltrs
500G = 2250 Ltrs


iamvff

[iamvff]

I was talking to a supplier yesterday, and he mention this new foam that is good for class A,B, and some D(metal). I have not had time to read much on the website, but he claims it is good for car fire with the magnesium. Anyone had anything to do with it? It is called Pyrocool...
http://www.pyrocool.org/index.htm

iamvff

[ehetu]

The last one we tried to drown took about 2500 gallons, which is about 2200 more than a regular vehicle should fire take!



1Gallon = 4.5 ltrs
1000G = 4500 ltrs
500G = 2250 Ltrs

iamvff


Holy crap! 4.5L * 2500 gals = 11,250 litres. What was burning? A Canadian Tire truck with a load of mag wheels? We've never had to set up a puddle for a car fire...this one must have been a monster.

edmond
Chelsea FD

[Roadwarrior]

I was talking to a supplier yesterday, and he mention this new foam that is good for class A,B, and some D(metal). I have not had time to read much on the website, but he claims it is good for car fire with the magnesium. Anyone had anything to do with it? It is called Pyrocool...
http://www.pyrocool.org/index.htm

iamvff

If I'm not mistaken, this is a re-packaged F-500 blend.

[Haweater]

1Gallon = 4.5 ltrs
1000G = 4500 ltrs
500G = 2250 Ltrs


iamvff


For the Americans visiting, 4.5 litres = 1 IMPERIAL Gallon
1 US Gallon = 3.9 litres
Cheers,
Gord