Pumpers and 'black water'

[tr23]

What would happen to a fire pump if it had 'black water' run through it? I hope I have the right term, I'm refering to water which is contaminated or used. I think 'grey water' also applies. Would it ruin the pump? Obviously it would require decontamination and cleaning....is that extensive work?

I'm asking because I was wondering if New Orleans fire department could use their pumpers to lower the water level in the city, or in one section, perhaps concentrating on an area to allow more trucks and buses in and out, or to allow door to door searches in one area at a time?

I guess this sounds crazy, but I thought that they must have a lot of pumping capacity in all their trucks.

[Scuba]

Hey TR23.

As long as the water is being strained for debris, it shouldn't do any major immediate damage - usualy just flushing a pumper with clean water after it's had anything questionable through it is enough to decontaminate/clean it....

worse comes to worse, if it's something corrosive you might want to change the packing - if it's debris, damaging a pump is an expensive proposition.....Our 1250gpm was a $25,000 option for the new pumper....
I'm sure repairing them is just as bad......

What would happen to a fire pump if it had 'black water' run through it? I hope I have the right term, I'm refering to water which is contaminated or used. I think 'grey water' also applies. Would it ruin the pump? Obviously it would require decontamination and cleaning....is that extensive work?

I'm asking because I was wondering if New Orleans fire department could use their pumpers to lower the water level in the city, or in one section, perhaps concentrating on an area to allow more trucks and buses in and out, or to allow door to door searches in one area at a time?

I guess this sounds crazy, but I thought that they must have a lot of pumping capacity in all their trucks.

[dentedhead]

Tr23,what Jude said.FYI Blackwater is water that must be treated or held in a septic system,IE human wastewater,hospital, funeral home etc.Graywater is dishwater,household runoff etc.Thats what guys in my hall that build houses tell me any ways.

Dentedhead

[ssifire]

What would happen to a fire pump if it had 'black water' run through it? I think 'grey water' also applies. Would it ruin the pump? Obviously it would require decontamination and cleaning....is that extensive work?

this sounds crazy, but I thought that they must have a lot of pumping capacity in all their trucks.

That's how they fought a fire yesterday, right downtown in the old part. Hard suction right beside the truck, as it was in 2 feet of water. Like Scuba said debris is the major problem. We suck out of a lot of small ponds and with a good screen or a floating screen, you can avoid alot of junk.

I not an expert on the area, but I think the problem is that the whole area is low, as in cost to or below sea level, so I don't think there's anywhere for the water to go. Even if you pumped it, you've have to relay pump for miles, and belove you do that you've have to fix the levies that are broken, or more water would come to reply the water you're diplacing.

[mcleodkent]

Yah Ssifire is right they have know where to pump it. and if they could its not like a little town. there is billions of gallons of water

[firefighter26]

I'm asking because I was wondering if New Orleans fire department could use their pumpers to lower the water level in the city, or in one section, perhaps concentrating on an area to allow more trucks and buses in and out, or to allow door to door searches in one area at a time?

I guess this sounds crazy, but I thought that they must have a lot of pumping capacity in all their trucks.

there is billions of gallons of water

Ok, I am having a slow day at work..... (someone get a calculator and double check this!)

Lets say for fun there was 5,000,000,000 (5 billion) gallons of water in the city and they had 50 fire engines, each with a 1250GPM capacity, each supplying their own lines out of the city.

~ 5,000,000,000 gallons
~ 50 fire engines @ 1250gpm running full capacity
= the ability to move 62500 gallons per minute, combined

5,000,000,000 gallons divided by 62500gpm
= 80000 minutes (or 1333.33 hours, or 55.55 days) of STRAIGHT pumping time to move the water....

..... and that doesn’t even factor in friction and flow lose on the LDH to get the water far enough out of town that it wouldn't just flood back in..... lets say on average they each had 3 miles to pump through 5 inch LDH... does anyone know the friction and flow loss on 3 miles of 5inch? And how many 5inch lines does each engine supply in order to pumping at full capacity.....

..... what's the average full consumption rate of a fire engine running at full capacity? how much would it cost them in fuel? how much in FF overtime?

AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHH ....to.... many.....numbers.....

[tr23]

OK then, I guess that answers the idea! DH tanks for definitions, that's interesting.

I didn't really think that pumping out the city that way would be feasible, but I had thought about certain contained sections, if such exist, or using sandbags or something to protect certain areas(superdome) and pump those areas out. Maybe even to pump out important buildings or basements(police stations, prisons, machinery rooms).

Thanks guys

[dentedhead]

Tr no probs anything to help.Also forgot to mention depending on local codes gray water can be allowed to leach into non environmentally sensitive swales or drainage ditches.

Dentedhead

[iamvff]

OK then, I guess that answers the idea! DH tanks for definitions, that's interesting.

I didn't really think that pumping out the city that way would be feasible, but I had thought about certain contained sections, if such exist, or using sandbags or something to protect certain areas(superdome) and pump those areas out. Maybe even to pump out important buildings or basements(police stations, prisons, machinery rooms).

Thanks guys

Also don't forget to factor in that New Orleans, I believe, is below sea level! and unless you can get a little swedish kid to put his finger in the dike that broke, it would be hard to pump it all out. Good question though...I just asked one similar to that last week, and also I just learned the term Black Water!!

iamvff (just waiting for the phone to ring!!) :confused:

[dentedhead]

iamvff (just waiting for the phone to ring!!)

If you go, and meet that cajun guy who yells aiiiiiieee all the time in his subaru.First get his autograph then feed him to a gator please.

Dentedhead

[FFWannabe]

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050901/480/laeg11809010052

here they are pumping water off the street... what a mess...

Sue :(

[Roadwarrior]

[QUOTE=firefighter26]... does anyone know the friction and flow loss on 3 miles of 5inch? QUOTE]

At 500 gpm over 15,000 feet and 5" hose, the friction loss is 300 psi. Now add in the elevation difference...yeah...too many numbers

[irsqyu]

[QUOTE=firefighter26]... does anyone know the friction and flow loss on 3 miles of 5inch? QUOTE]

At 500 gpm over 15,000 feet and 5" hose, the friction loss is 300 psi. Now add in the elevation difference...yeah...too many numbers


Is That U.S Gal or Imperial??, how much is that in LPM

[Roadwarrior]

That is in US gal....in litres, thats a lotta water

[ssifire]

If you go, and meet that cajun guy who yells aiiiiiieee all the time in his subaru.First get his autograph then feed him to a gator please.

Dentedhead

You can do it! Cut off his head!

[dentedhead]

You can do it! Cut off his head!


Good Idea then we can have proof, other than the autograph.

Dentedhead

[scottmacd37]

[QUOTE=firefighter26]... does anyone know the friction and flow loss on 3 miles of 5inch? QUOTE]

At 500 gpm over 15,000 feet and 5" hose, the friction loss is 300 psi. Now add in the elevation difference...yeah...too many numbers


Not adding in loss for elevation, your friction loss over 5 miles would be 528 psi.

[DFCSmash]

The problem with flood water also lies in the fact that it is very dirty. Not only is it black water (contains sewage) but it is also extremely silty. All of this silt acts just like wet sanding. It kicks the crap outta your impeller and pumpcasing. 3 hours of pumping it is likely equivalent to about 3 years of "normal" pump use. We refuse to do it here for just that reason.

BTW, our local Lion's Club has an agricultural pump which makes very little pressure, but moves about 5000 igpm. Thats not a misprint. It takes a 75 pto horsepower tractor to drive it. Empties the "swimming hole" ( about 1.25 acres avg 5 feet deep) in 8 hours. 1 square mile is 640 acres. New Orleans is how many square miles? Avg say 3 feet deep. Gotta move it how far? This'll take a while. And it's ALL gotta be pumped out folks cause water don't flow up hill. Glad I'm not in charge of THAT job :eek: .

[HOSE_HOUND]

I really don’t think you are all thinking seriously about using fire pump apparatus to remove water from New Orleans now, do we? Since the damage that was created by flooding is already done, what purpose could one possibly see in using fire pump apparatus used to pump out an already devastated city? To tie up so much in resources for such a slow process, why? Further, there is still much of New Orleans that is above water and is still at threat from potential fires. Can we honestly think of putting apparatus and front-line personnel out of commission to pump out a city? I think not! Other emergencies will continue to challenge the New Orleans FD during its city’s recovery period, so it’s best to let them do what they do best….respond to true emergencies. Besides, the engineers have already brought in much larger pumps and piping systems to pump out the city more effectively and efficiently. The focus now is to return the city to the people, along with the services that will always be needed.

I would hope that in closing if New Orleans would like to see less devastation of this kind in the future, it will have to upgrade a much needed dike system to protect its infrastructure. You know what they say; any strong offence will also require a strong defense.

[HOSE_HOUND]

[QUOTE=iamvff].... and unless you can get a little swedish kid to put his finger in the dike that broke...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was a little dutch boy. Maybe that's why it didn't work? LOL