Ottawa Firefighters union threatens 'double-hatters'

[five_alarm]

OTTAWA, ON - Ottawa's firefighters union is putting more pressure on members to stop volunteering at rural fire departments. Five Ottawa firefighters suspected of moonlighting at volunteer fire departments outside the city were sent notices in the last two weeks advising them to cease such work, said Barry Quinn, executive board member of the Ottawa Professional Fire Fighters Association. They risk losing their jobs if they fail to comply, he said yesterday.

It's the first time the union has sent written notices to suspected "double-hatters" -- professional firefighters who volunteer at rural fire stations on their own time. "I don't believe notices have ever been sent out before in Ottawa," said Mr. Quinn. "To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time that notices have gone out."

The notices were sent when the union had strong evidence some of its professional members were volunteering at smaller fire departments outside the city, he said. Previous reports of double-hatting firefighters turned out to be false, so no notices were sent out.

Source: canada.com (http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=9e3c1671-33dd-4e2a-b402-37efa3348110)

[FFWannabe]

Sorry, am I just being obtuse? I don't get it. I do, of course, understand the need to be bright eyed and bushy tailed when you arrive for work, but...
"Secondary employment is prohibited under the constitution of the International Association of Fire Fighters, he said. Professional firefighters who breach the constitution can lose their standing in the organization."
Does that mean any secondary emplyment, or just volunteer work... because technically that isn't even employment!! Also, there are many, many firefighters with secondary employment, so are they not union members? It's a little confusing and yes it seems like a strong arm attempt to cut the experienced numbers out of volunteer departments in order to try to force fulltime.... but wouldn't a municipality have to be able to afford fulltime? Is the union going to subsidize these incomes?

Is it really that important to the union to grow it's numbers that they will put people at risk by telling people they cannot respond to emergencies?

Okay, must let this one soak in a little, as I have a million questions. Maybe someone can explain to me the non-journalist reasons double hatters are not allowed.

Thanks! Sue :)

[Leafs Fan]

Sue, this has been debated to death on this forum, but some of the issues that you are raising (growing the union, forcing fulltime on smaller communities) are not the reason for this at all. While I don't agree with the unions tactics and would feel better with a "don't ask,don't tell" kind of attitude, the union's reasoning are not without merit. Basically the big one is collective bargaining. how can our negotiating committee hope to improve our wages or benefits when the city managers hold up the fact that our members are willing to do it for next to nothing on the outskirts of town.
It is also intresting to note how the media will focus on this side of the issue but little to nothing is made of the fact that it is becoming more common in Ontario to see full-time firefighters being laid off in favour of paid-on call(something that should be a concern to you). Hard to pay mortages,taxes and for goods and services if you are paid on call. The union would be better off asking it's members to volunteer their time off with public works helping snowplow, or picking up garbage to reduce costs to their municipality by laying off some other township workers instead. Or, better yet, go into the local industries and offer their services for free,That would go over like a lead balloon.

[Workingfire]

Wow...

Sue, ask yourself this...If you were a carpenter, and a member of the carpenters union; do you think the carpenters union would tell you that you can't give your time to your community and help build a new community center? They probably wouldn't care what you did in your time off.

As for firefighters having second jobs, yes; most do. So if they (the union) enforce the rules to their fullest you might have a hard time finding someone to put up your new fence, build your new deck, do your landscaping, install your new furnace etc.

I'm sure more of your questions will be answered in the days to come. This issue is far from over.

[Leafs Fan]

Wow...

Sue, ask yourself this...If you were a carpenter, and a member of the carpenters union; do you think the carpenters union would tell you that you can't give your time to your community and help build a new community center? They probably wouldn't care what you did in your time off.

As for firefighters having second jobs, yes; most do. So if they (the union) enforce the rules to their fullest you might have a hard time finding someone to put up your new fence, build your new deck, do your landscaping, install your new furnace etc.

I'm sure more of your questions will be answered in the days to come. This issue is far from over.


I couldn't agree with you less. I am guessing the carpenters union wouldn't be thrilled with a carpenter literally taking the bread off their brother and sister carpenters'tables.
As well, I am a career firefighter with local 497 and most of the firefighters I know do not have second jobs. Yes, some do, but you will find that in many workplaces.

[scoop422]

I don't necessarily agree with the IAFF on this but it is part of membership. I agree with don't ask don't tell. B.T.W. it doesn't say you can't have a part-time job. It says you can't have a part-time job as a firefighter or paramedic.

[Kearley]

B.T.W. it doesn't say you can't have a part-time job. It says you can't have a part-time job as a firefighter or paramedic.

"Secondary employment is prohibited under the constitution of the International Association of Fire Fighters"

Yes it does say you can't have a part-time job. The same is with nurses, paramedics, and police, and I think the military. The theory behind this one is that the service has a fan-out procedure in which they are allowed to declare an emergency and call you in. And you have no choice, because under the contract you sign... they basically own you. Under this same contract there are actually many "neat" things. If you perform an act of "self-mutilation" (sun burns and sports injuries included) they are allowed to fine you for damaging their property (this is especially true, and used in the military).

[FFWannabe]

Interesting... okay, so I completely understand the "doing it for free while trying to get better wages, etc" But that's only really half an arguement... the double hatters aren't willing to ONLY do it for free, they are being paid and also doing it for free... isn't that a little different than solely doing it for free? Just a question, but the union's standpoint does make sense.

I can also see that it would be the same in any union, although there are organizations where, carpenters, electricians, plumbers etc offer their services for free or discounted, such as Habitat for Humanity.

I figured this had been beaten to death before and I didn't mean to start anything... lol... oh, and the article does mention that it was possibly the union's way to force the municipalities into fulltime service and up their membership.

I know many firefighters with second jobs, one of them leaves his night shift (7am) to start his 8am-2pm job, goes back to the hall, sleeps for a couple of hours and starts his next shift. It's not a secret. Another man brings cabinets in to work from a job he's doing, sands them, paints them and takes them home.. yest another brings her sewing machine in and makes her clothing that she sells. It's tough to think the union is too strict on this law, until it comes to volunteering... and yet, that's not even a job.

K, babbling again... I can see how it could put people at risk if the firefighter was out all night at a fire and then came to work in the morning too tired to do his/her work, but when there is 5 in 900???

Thanks for the answers guys... I'm not saying the union's wrong, just wondering what the justification is.

Sue :)

[berwynFD]

Sorry to attack the Union guys. I believe in the strength of unions.
But by your arguments no one should volunteer as fire fighters or anything else that has professionals in the business. Every time we wash the truck the car wash doesn't make money. When we inspect and maintain the trucks the local shop doesn't make money. When we have a pulic BBQ the local resteraunt doesn't make money
...

Perhaps the unions should look at the big picture of fire service. We need a srtonger voice in the public eye. Then maybe the politicians would thing twice before putting the bottom line before safety.

[FFWannabe]

That's a good point berwyn... I guess my major gripe with not allowing fulltimers to volunteer is how I see the fire department in the first place... serving the community and being a part of what makes the area safe for everyone, not restricting safety to paid hours... hmmmmm

The only strong arguement I see for not doing both would be the rest factor, being sure to be rested for your paid shift. You can't tell me that being a volunteer and a fulltimer would hurt wage negotiations, as I said, you're not only doing it for free, you're doing it for free as well and should still be expected to earn a fair wage for your career. Many employers could say the same thing, "I don't want you out there fighting fires all night." or "If you're willing to do that for free, why do I have to pay you more." Seems pretty weak.

Just thinking out loud some more... Sue :)

[BCFFFV]

A carpenter's union or any trade union wouldn't be happy about full time firefighters working at jobsites. The trick is keeping the fact that you are a firefighter low key while at a second job if you have one. I get pretty upset when I see guys with fire dept. shirts on at construction sites. It doesn't score us any bonus points with taxpaying trades people when they see firefighters underbidding their services.

[ABFF37]

Basically the big one is collective bargaining. how can our negotiating committee hope to improve our wages or benefits when the city managers hold up the fact that our members are willing to do it for next to nothing on the outskirts of town.

I agree that this is probably the biggest issue with the whole thing. We have a hard time arguing for more from our employers when they can look at members that are willing to provide the same service for free elsewhere.

There are a few other points to ponder as well. The constitution of the union more or less says that any member of the IAFF under no circumstances will WORK OR VOLUNTEER in any role within any other fire service, with any other emergency agency, municipality etc. So whether you agree with it or not, by entering into the union, you agree to abide by the constitutions that govern its members. This therefore precludes all members from volunteer firefighting right from day one. I'm not saying that this justifies or changes anything, just that this isn't some new thing that is being pushed onto members, it's a long standing portion of the constitution. Whether you work on your days off as a carpenter, plumber etc. is irrelevant, as the IAFF is a firefighter’s union, not a tradesperson union. (Although I agree that members working in their time off in such areas should definitely respect the union members within that profession).

I also think that there is sometimes a bit of a misunderstanding surrounding why the IAFF would discourage volunteers in neighboring communities. The main concern of the IAFF is the safety and well being of the firefighters they represent, and the communities that they serve. If the IAFF believes that volunteering is a threat (due to firefighter fatigue, injury/illness and so on), then it is their responsibility to act. Not just for the firefighters themselves, but also for the residents. As has been said in previous posts, if a firefighter arrives at work exhausted from a fire that he or she fought on their volunteer shift the day before how does that impact the safety of the residents that they are employed to protect? Anyone that wants to dispute the fact that the IAFF cares about the communities that their member serve as opposed to simply the day to day union issues, look at the many charities the IAFF backs, like burn treatment societies and muscular dystrophy to name but a couple.

As far as the argument that the IAFF wants to increase its membership numbers, dues etc. as the original newspaper article stated, personally I think this is absolute rubbish. The IAFF already has some 267 000 members, and is growing daily. They are among the most powerful unions in the world. The IAFF does not need to displace volunteers in order to boost their numbers.

Just some of my thoughts on the issues.

AB

[berwynFD]

- If the call volume is high enough to fire the vollys the departments needs more full timers. Hire them, campain the elected to correct the abuse of peoples good will.

- If a person is comming to work tired then the work place has ways of dealing with that, regardless of why. Most employers would like thier people to enjoy practicing and gaining job related experience

- Try and name a profession who is paid less because they enjoy what they do? If the unions are spouting that they are showing thier own insecurity. MLB, NHL, NBA,... Bet you never hear that come up at thier negociation tables.

- How are small departments supposed to handle the transition to full time when the profession is so clearly devided? To everyone outside it looks like the full timers attacking the validity of the 80+% of the rest of us.

[scoop422]

Kearley, this is quoted from the constitution.

"Any IAFF member found working a secondary job as a paid on-call firefighter or an employee of a public employer, non-profit corporation, or a private contracting firm providing fire protection or emergency medical services to a city, county, municipality, or a fire protection district as a volunteer, reserve, part-time, part paid, or public safety officer may be subject to charges being filed against that member."

[dentedhead]

The way it was explained to me when I was sworn in.Under no circumstance would 2 hatting be permitted,the president himself told me that if I was caught and didnt heed the request to quit the volley dept he himself would pull me up on charges.No hes not a hardass, quite the opposite. Hes a fair and excellent president.Just a very firm believer in the IAFF and its tenets.Before you ask no I have never been a vollie.

However in Canada they have a slightly different approach to those who want to work EMS PT most locals have no problem with it as no FD provides ambulance service in Ontario anyways.They maybe the service provider but the medics are not FF or members of the IAFF.As long as you work for a different municipality PT its not that big of an issue.

You do see the occaisonal story in the paper about a PT medic being "threatened" by the union of the FD he works for. Usually its over something unrelated to his working PT.

I was also told that you can still be charged if another association member feels you are two hatting, regardless of their local or country of employment.The constitution is clear and your local cant protect you if you chose to fight it.

As far as secondary employment in non emergency fields there is no rules for or against.I work with guys that drive trucks work in their own small contracting/trade bidnises and a couple of guys that work as sales reps with no problems.

Dentedhead

[wilderness]

if you want to be a two hatter more power to you,next they will be telling you were to shit and when to eat, what they do in thier time off, is there own bussiness........ no diffrent then any of the fulltime guys working doing yard maintenace or building decks, so they vollie, so they bring more to the job..... next they'll be saying woooo hold the horse's, your teaching at the fire college, mmm conflict of interest.. sorry boys we'll have to put a stop to this..... la la la monkey piss, what they put into the comunity is there bussiness not the unions, like there's a chance we'll be fulltime, not in a million years... so "@#@@&*** THE UNION"

[Leafs Fan]

if you want to be a two hatter more power to you,next they will be telling you were to shit and when to eat, what they do in thier time off, is there own bussiness........ no diffrent then any of the fulltime guys working doing yard maintenace or building decks, so they vollie, so they bring more to the job..... next they'll be saying woooo hold the horse's, your teaching at the fire college, mmm conflict of interest.. sorry boys we'll have to put a stop to this..... la la la monkey piss, what they put into the comunity is there bussiness not the unions, like there's a chance we'll be fulltime, not in a million years... so "@#@@&*** THE UNION"

Excellent post wilderness, showing a real grasp of the issues and a lot of maturity.

[ABFF37]

"@#@@&*** THE UNION"

Does the IAFF really affect you in one way or another in your volunteer duties? Somehow I don't think so.

But the IAFF does do incredible things for it's members, from fighting to ensure that we get the fairest treatment from city hall, to lobbying governments on our behalf regarding health and safety issues, and taking the lead to look after firefighters are their families when one of their own is injured or killed. Not to mention the fact that the IAFF will jump in to assist local affiliates when they are put up against situations or circumstances that are overwhelming to them.

The IAFF has done a lot of good things for firefighters everywhere let's not forget. The presumptive cancer legislation that applies to firefighters of all backgrounds in many provinces is something that was largely influenced by the actions of the IAFF for starters.

No the IAFF isn't perfect, and no, everyone needn't agree with their every action or policy. But think about firefighting as a community above and beyond the career/volunteer debate and remember the brotherhood of our calling. Consider that the next time you decide to tell my union, of which I am immensely proud to be a member of, to @#@@&*** off.

AB

[dentedhead]

No the IAFF isn't perfect, and no, everyone needn't agree with their every action or policy. But think about firefighting as a community above and beyond the career/volunteer debate and remember the brotherhood of our calling. Consider that the next time you decide to tell my union, of which I am immensely proud to be a member of, to @#@@&*** off. QuoteABFF37

Couldnt have summed it up better.This is the first union that I personally have ever cared about, or could even use pride and union in the same sentence.

While I can in a way understand your point wilderness, until you have seen first hand the the workings of the IAFF you can keep your F@#K offs to yerself thanks!


Dentedhead

[Scuba]

I have no issues with Unions at all - there's a time and a place they're needed and useful - but honestly - I can't really see this being the right situation for them to be sticking their noses into.

Maybe as an alternative to creating such a rift in what was once a brotherhood (as apparently the name calling and hard nosed attitudes on both sides of the fence indicate an issue within) the IAFF should think about affiliating, or starting a branch to help volunteer departments out (seeing as most departments are no longer true volunteer, and more likely POC) - maybe if they're getting some action from the volunteer side too they'd stop blackballing people who are just trying to help their communities out.....

Personaly I don't really care what union you belong to, if you do or if you don't - like my signature says - for those who would shed their blood for me - I will call them brother. Is there really anything more than that?

[irsqyu]

I believe this whole two-hatter issue came to light when a fairly large Southern Ontario City amalgamated with the surrounding rural areas, at this point the POC fire departments became part of the municipal fire department. The big problem came when a few of these POC firefighters got hired as career by the City. Some of them still wanted to be POC in their area. This is not right as they were now working full time for the municipality as well as working part time for the same community.This is a different situation than a municipal firefighter living in a small rural community with an all volunteer department. In the first situation,the POC firefighters get backup from the City career staff and could be working part time on the same call as their career brothers.

[BCFFFV]

I agree.....The UNION can't fire anybody. They could kick you out of the union but you couldn't lose your job because they aren't your employer. However, it would be very uncomfortable going to work at the firehall if you decided to quit the union over something like this. Nobody likes to be told what to do on their own time however I must agree that if you are an IAFF member you shouldn't also be a paid on call or volunteer also. As a union member this shouldn't be hard to understand.

[tr23]

As an outsider to the fire service this is a very interesting topic. It seems strong opinions, backed by strong arguements abound on both sides.

If a volunteer crew were responding to my burning home, I would be grateful if they had a few extra trained doublehatters.

However, if a full-time crew were responding to my burning home, and some FF we're not in top form due to fighting a previous fire for the volunteer department, I would wonder why my tax dollars are benefitting the other guy more. I pay higher taxes living in a city, one of the benefits I receive is full-time FFs who are paid to respond to my disaster at a moments notice, and I expect them to be in the best possible form.

TR23

[Workingfire]

OK...here's how you can lose your job for two-hatting.

First the IAFF tries to (and usuall does) put it in their agreement with the city that only IAFF members will provide fire protection to that community, so it's basically a closed union shop.

When the IAFF finds out that your two-hatting they have the option of kicking you out of the union, and since it's in the collective agreement between the city and union that only IAFF members can work there; the city has no choice but to let you go! It's part of a written, binding agreement.

Right or wrong, I don't think it's worth losing the best job in the world to play weekend hose-warrior.

[BCFFFV]

Just a different mentality back in hickville Manitoba, We have LOTS that do it.. Im not saying I agree or disagree, but, like I said before, we have commuinties 1/2-45mins away from the city that alot of guys live in and want to protect i guess. You cant look at the Lower mainland the same, everything runs into itself, here there is the city and 1/2 out there is a small town of 3500 plp.. This is where these guys live. I agree Langley, Surrey , abbotsford, maple ridge shoudl all be paid they protect communities of 50000 up.. These communities Im talking about in Southern Manitoba youd miss if you blinked.. Lol..[/QUOTE]


I agree 100% when you are talking about Maple Ridge, Langley, Abbotsford etc. they should have several more paid members. I also agree that things are very much different in other areas than the lower mainland area of B.C. In my area it's not much of a debate I agree.....

[Ladymedic]

If I can throw my two cents in......

First off, let's remember that this issue arose in the USA, where things are significantly different than they are here. However once the clause was inserted into the constitution, American or Canadian, it still applies.

It hadn't been much of an issue here for many years, usually a case of don't know don't tell for most places. To expand on what irsqyu wrote let me take it a little further as I think we are talking about the same place.

A affluent community (suburb of a large city) determines that call volume warrants staffing a front line truck Mon-Fri from 8am-4pm. This being a paid on call dept it was determined that the truck would be staffed with 1 full time Captain (who would also double as the Dept FPO) and 2 "part timers". The "Part timers" would be paid $11 hourly while on shift unless they received a call during which their hourly rate would increase while they were on the call.(can't remember what it went up to)

Now, "Part time" staff members were scheduled weeks in advance for these shifts. Sounds okay right? Well, here comes the wrench. This Department also counted as members numerous Career Firefighters from various Departments across the GTA and Southern Ontario. And, these Firefighters worked scheduled shifts at this Department as well. Many would work their full time job at night, then come "Home" and work all day at their "part time job" and then go back into work again. Can you see the issues now? Can you understand what Leafs Fan means about undermining Collective Bargaining? Can you see the Health and Safety aspect of it now? This community had determined that they required full time coverage, this is not a case of the big bad union forcing the full time issue on a community that can't afford it.

Let's look at another example. The issue of Mr. Lee from Whitby, probably the most vocal IAFF member who adopted a "hell no I won't go" stance. Mr Lee was quoted in Newspapers all across Ontario that he refused to leave his volunteer job protecting his community no matter what the IAFF did to him. He was willing to go all the way in order to fight this injustice, no way could the IAFF tell him what he could and could not do in his off time. He became the poster boy for the "Two hatter" issue. I believe he eventually was transferred out of Fire and into a different city position but my facts are not 100% about that. Hmmm has anyone heard from Mr. Lee lately? No? Why could that be? Perhaps due to the fact that after all his politicing, Mr. Lee applied for and was offered a position with the Office of the Fire Marshal here in Ontario.....but guess what? In order to be employed by the OFM, Mr. Lee would have to quit his position with his part time Department. Conflict of jobs and all. Funny, we never heard anything about that. Not one article on how dare the OFM dictate what he does on his days off, not one radio interview on how the OFM prevents him from protecting his community and lastly not one Queens park demonstration demanding to know what the Provincial Government was going to do to stop this infringement on his basic rights.

Sounds like hipocrasy to me.

[BCFFFV]

OK...here's how you can lose your job for two-hatting.

First the IAFF tries to (and usuall does) put it in their agreement with the city that only IAFF members will provide fire protection to that community, so it's basically a closed union shop.

When the IAFF finds out that your two-hatting they have the option of kicking you out of the union, and since it's in the collective agreement between the city and union that only IAFF members can work there; the city has no choice but to let you go! It's part of a written, binding agreement.

Right or wrong, I don't think it's worth losing the best job in the world to play weekend hose-warrior.


In our collective bargaining agreement it states that union membership is voluntary and NOT a condition of employment.

[dentedhead]

In our collective bargaining agreement it states that union membership is voluntary and NOT a condition of employment.

Thats an exception to the rule I would think.Ours states that in order to be employed as a FT FF you must be a sworn member in good standing of the IAFF to be employed.This is also protection against contracting out.

Its very rare in any unionized civil service that you find an "open shop" be it CUPE,OPSEU or the posties.I was a member of CAW once. I was told it was an open shop,cept it was very uncomfortable if you werent a member. Out of 2500 unionized employes 2 said no.They were treated like lepers.


Dentedhead

[Scuba]

I don't think it's worth losing the best job in the world to play weekend hose-warrior.


ummmm I think you mean (professional) volunteer firefighter. Afterall - we do train to the same standards fulltimers do...

[JoJobrat]

I find holes in both sides of this issue. I for one wonder what will happen when the fire season is in full swing and both the fulltimers and volly's are running. Where are the volly's going to come up with the man power if to many of their guys are called in. We have had a number of bad seasons here. Will have to ask my friendly fire chief about that.

As for the issue of rest. I must laugh! Any firefighter with young children may come to work just so he can rest. How many of you actually work harder at home than at work? Or play sports? Point is there are far to many other ways of being tired when arriving at work. Maybe it is time to find some room for comprimise. I understand the larger areas being concerned, but the smaller communities thrive on the generousity of its memebers.

[Ladymedic]

JoJo, at least in Canada the issue has never been with the smaller communities that comprise most of rural Canada. Even the most staunch union executive doesn't expect these Departments to be full time.

[Scuba]

Even the most staunch union executive doesn't expect these Departments to be full time.

But apparently they do wish to compromise the provision of fire services to residents of these rural communities.....

I know one department out here that has 3 full timers on it from Ottawa.....3 out of 15 is a pretty big cut when you look at taking away some of your best trained members.

[wilderness]

Maybe my statement about "**^&%@# the union" was a little strong,
i do agree that the union is a must for firefighters everywhere, hell the things it brings to us vollies is great "not that we are in the union" anyway, i just feel the union is looking after themselves not the public or two hatters, what the Ottawa Union wants is all there station in the amalgamated area to be union halls, and no vollies, but that isn't feasable as could you imagine Fitzroy Harbour with a full time station, come on guys....its a town of 1500 not 15,000... the union says its to protect the genral public safety and the firefighters safety.... again i have to wounder along there line of thinking.....
You can't treaten the firefighters, for doing something on there own time... after all its there own time......

[firefighter316]

OK...here's how you can lose your job for two-hatting.

First the IAFF tries to (and usuall does) put it in their agreement with the city that only IAFF members will provide fire protection to that community, so it's basically a closed union shop.

When the IAFF finds out that your two-hatting they have the option of kicking you out of the union, and since it's in the collective agreement between the city and union that only IAFF members can work there; the city has no choice but to let you go! It's part of a written, binding agreement.

Right or wrong, I don't think it's worth losing the best job in the world to play weekend hose-warrior.

What the H*LL does that mean?

[BCFFFV]

Thats an exception to the rule I would think.Ours states that in order to be employed as a FT FF you must be a sworn member in good standing of the IAFF to be employed.This is also protection against contracting out.

Its very rare in any unionized civil service that you find an "open shop" be it CUPE,OPSEU or the posties.I was a member of CAW once. I was told it was an open shop,cept it was very uncomfortable if you werent a member. Out of 2500 unionized employes 2 said no.They were treated like lepers.


Dentedhead


Oh believe me.....It wouldn't be comfortable if you weren't a member. Everyone is a member. But I think there would be a legal option of opting out if someone wanted to. The Leper term would probably be suitable for whoever would not join the union.

[BCFFFV]

Maybe my statement about "**^&%@# the union" was a little strong,
i do agree that the union is a must for firefighters everywhere, hell the things it brings to us vollies is great "not that we are in the union" anyway, i just feel the union is looking after themselves not the public or two hatters, what the Ottawa Union wants is all there station in the amalgamated area to be union halls, and no vollies, but that isn't feasable as could you imagine Fitzroy Harbour with a full time station, come on guys....its a town of 1500 not 15,000... the union says its to protect the genral public safety and the firefighters safety.... again i have to wounder along there line of thinking.....
You can't treaten the firefighters, for doing something on there own time... after all its there own time......

I know there are many composite dept's where the Union understands the need for volunteers or paid on call members. Not every IAFF local expects 100% full time members of every dept. Many small communities need both.

[dentedhead]

What the H*LL does that mean?

Exactly what he says,could have been a bit more diplomatic about it maybe.I for one would NOT risk a job that I love and worked hard to get over sumpin a simple as this issue.FT means no volly.

I dont think there would be anything wrong in helping with training or education periodically to help those that serve your community.


I know of a couple of volunteer Depts around where I grew up that were "closed shops" basically to get on you had to be FT in the cities near the community that you lived in.There were lots of guys that worked in the old TO depts Brampton etc who lived just outside of town.

The Chief of Brampton fire is to my Knowledge still a DC on Caledon fire.Maybe its different for officers/non union personell.


Dentedhead

[Leafs Fan]

maybe it would behoove us Canadian IAFF members to use our membership in this organization to seek changes in the constitution, As well our volunteer,paid on call bretheren could assist by lobbying our provincial governments to seek some standards of fire protection that result in moving appropriate dept's to career firefighters when the situation warrants. I think it can be summed up in one word.


Compromise
:)

[Ladymedic]

Scuba, three out of 15 firefighters may be a big cut for this department, but then again, since when is it Ottawa's responsibility or any other Full time Department City responsibility to pay for and provide training for these smaller communities. Fire College courses are free. Send your guys away and train them on your purse, not mine.

[Workingfire]

ummmm I think you mean (professional) volunteer firefighter. Afterall - we do train to the same standards fulltimers do...

No, I meant what I said...are you trying to say that the guy/gal who plays slo-pitch 4 nights a week and on weekends is trained the same as any of the Blue Jays? NO...that is their profession, what they trained long and hard to do! Some of the guys/gals getting hired today have years, not hours; of fire service education...plus specialty courses!

Now I'm sure that there are vollies out there with similar resumes, but they're probably trying to get on FT somewhere...and when they do, they're no longer vollies, thats what started this whole discussion 43 posts ago!

I don't intend to pi$$-off any vollies...a few years ago I was one, and many of my family members still are vollies; but the training and experience is not the same.

But we can start a new forum if you want to attack me on that one!

[tr23]

I know one department out here that has 3 full timers on it from Ottawa.....3 out of 15 is a pretty big cut when you look at taking away some of your best trained members.

That seems like the problem....it seems that some departments are building their crews on other people's training bill....like city taxpayers. How would a department feel if the guys took they're gear home..maybe grabbed a BA with a few tanks, grabbed a K-12, some other tools, to make use of them at someone elses fire?

The training and skill that a FT department has payed for and developed is a tool for them, and if it gets damaged fighting someone else's fire, their investment is bust, and their not gonna be happy. In a sense, FT FF are clients to an employer...the taxpayer, and I think the taxpayers expect their money to benefit their municipality, not another one. On a somewhat morbid note....if a FF gets lung or brain cancer, who pays for his medical bills? his funeral? which department insurance policy pays out to his family for his sacrifice? The FT department where he caught lungfulls of smoke, or the volly one?

I completely understand that it would only be normal for anyone to want to help out where they live...thats the nature of the people who fight fires, and I think this arguement shows that almost everyone would if they could - it would seem that the answer to this dilemma would be to create what has already been expressed...a compromise, a written understanding, mandated by provincial or federal law that has the volly department pick up a small piece of the tab for all the training that their FT members get?

On a side note, is their any organization which supports and protects volly FFs? I've read of some unions getting involved, but perhaps if the IAFF had a division dedicated to forcing towns and villages to put in place strict guidelines about manpower, FT and vollie, equipment, etc, it would both make everyone safer, and have departments that should be FT, become FT, thus increasing their membership, which would seem to be on the arguements tied up in this?

TR23

[smoke286]

I have no issues with Unions at all - there's a time and a place they're needed and useful - but honestly - I can't really see this being the right situation for them to be sticking their noses into.

You couldn't be more wrong SJ. Firstly they are not "sticking their nose in" this is a legitimate issue for the IAFF

Secondly the problem is "Two Hatters" a two hatter is not a union firefighter who volunteers in some remote volunteer fire dept. In that case you are right, and the union could care less (many IAFF members do)even though officially it is against their constitution The problem lies when IAFF members volunteer with in the same jurisdiction or with Dept s that have another union local [which is what causes most of the furor in the DC area

[smoke286]

Unions in Canada are a closed shop. If the union withdraws your card and you are not managment then you are out of a job. Ask Mr Lee in Ontario

[smoke286]

I agree.....The UNION can't fire anybody. They could kick you out of the union but you couldn't lose your job because they aren't your employer. However, it would be very uncomfortable going to work at the firehall if you decided to quit the union over something like this. Nobody likes to be told what to do on their own time however I must agree that if you are an IAFF member you shouldn't also be a paid on call or volunteer also. As a union member this shouldn't be hard to understand.


You are mistaken, the Tim Lee case in Whitby Ontario went all the way to the Ontario Supreme Court, bottom line he lost his union membership , he lost his job.

[smoke286]

OK...here's how you can lose your job for two-hatting.

First the IAFF tries to (and usuall does) put it in their agreement with the city that only IAFF members will provide fire protection to that community, so it's basically a closed union shop.

When the IAFF finds out that your two-hatting they have the option of kicking you out of the union, and since it's in the collective agreement between the city and union that only IAFF members can work there; the city has no choice but to let you go! It's part of a written, binding agreement.

Right or wrong, I don't think it's worth losing the best job in the world to play weekend hose-warrior.

Exactly, that however is not the way it works in the US, where unions in most jurisdictions do not have the same rights we do in Canada

[smoke286]

But apparently they do wish to compromise the provision of fire services to residents of these rural communities.....

I know one department out here that has 3 full timers on it from Ottawa.....3 out of 15 is a pretty big cut when you look at taking away some of your best trained members.

SJ in reality that would not be an issue,unless these ruraldepts were part of the same jusisdiction, in which case it is two hatting

[smoke286]

On a side note, is their any organization which supports and protects volly FFs?

TR23

Why would they need one?

Municipalities love volunteers, for the obvious reasons. The would never replace them with paid staff if they were not forced by wither the tax payers or insurance companies

[Scuba]

Scuba, three out of 15 firefighters may be a big cut for this department, but then again, since when is it Ottawa's responsibility or any other Full time Department City responsibility to pay for and provide training for these smaller communities. Fire College courses are free. Send your guys away and train them on your purse, not mine.

Actually try the other way around there Lady - these fine folks were volunteerrs, and full trained at that, long before they were taken on as paid staff - maybe cities should start having to compensate other municipalities when they hire volunteer fire fighters to their full time ranks.....yeah....now that makes sense..... And btw - must be a while since you've attended the college - they're free to the end user, it works out to about $50/day + costs to have someone attending. Besides, who can manage to attend the college with their user friendly schedule? but that's another thead........

[BCFFFV]

You are mistaken, the Tim Lee case in Whitby Ontario went all the way to the Ontario Supreme Court, bottom line he lost his union membership , he lost his job.


Now you are telling me what our collective agreement states? I'll mail you a copy if you'd like.

[Scuba]

Actually, your still green, it's been hatched out before, and I was suprised it reared it's ugly head again.

Take a look a the OFC/OFM Certification program - you tell me if there's any difference in skills performance or the required skills between volunteer and full time - oh yeah - don't bother - there is no difference at all execpt in the tiem you have to put in before you can be considered....

I am a professional in what I do, in my job performance, actions and attitude in the fire service.

I just love it when we're seen as beer swilling bums who just go and play with hoses on the weekend......nice mutual respect there brother. I won't hold your attitude problems against any full time department when we get called in for mutual aid to help them out......oh but wait - can you believe it - the big shiney professional firefighters asking for help from us lowly weekend hose warrior? *faints*

No, I meant what I said...are you trying to say that the guy/gal who plays slo-pitch 4 nights a week and on weekends is trained the same as any of the Blue Jays? NO...that is their profession, what they trained long and hard to do! Some of the guys/gals getting hired today have years, not hours; of fire service education...plus specialty courses!

Now I'm sure that there are vollies out there with similar resumes, but they're probably trying to get on FT somewhere...and when they do, they're no longer vollies, thats what started this whole discussion 43 posts ago!

I don't intend to pi$$-off any vollies...a few years ago I was one, and many of my family members still are vollies; but the training and experience is not the same.

But we can start a new forum if you want to attack me on that one!

[BCFFFV]

Actually try the other way around there Lady - these fine folks were volunteerrs, and full trained at that, long before they were taken on as paid staff - maybe cities should start having to compensate other municipalities when they hire volunteer fire fighters to their full time ranks.....yeah....now that makes sense..... And btw - must be a while since you've attended the college - they're free to the end user, it works out to about $50/day + costs to have someone attending. Besides, who can manage to attend the college with their user friendly schedule? but that's another thead........


This is ridiculous.....Okay so the fry guy at McDonalds quits and then goes to Wendy's and he should owe his former employer? I know this example is silly but so is this argument. Nobody owes anyone anything. When you work at a job volunteer or paid and happen to gain a skill you don't owe anyone anything if you quit or leave or whatever.

[smoke286]

Actually try the other way around there Lady - these fine folks were volunteerrs, and full trained at that, long before they were taken on as paid staff - maybe cities should start having to compensate other municipalities when they hire volunteer fire fighters to their full time ranks.....yeah....now that makes sense..... And btw - must be a while since you've attended the college - they're free to the end user, it works out to about $50/day + costs to have someone attending. Besides, who can manage to attend the college with their user friendly schedule? but that's another thead........

SJ are you aware that applying for a position with a career dept with volunteer experience gets you diddly squat? at least in most jurisdictions. City's much prefer candidate who have graduated from one of the various fire colleges around the country. Ladtmedic is quite correct city tax payers ahould not have to foot the bill to train firefighters in rural areas

[Buckster]

Been watching this thread for a bit.....while I agree that if a person takes a position understanding that they cant volunteer on a fire dept it shouldnt be an issue....thems the rules....maybe, as leafsfan said, change some of the rules? as far as volly exp. meaning nothing.....most career guys i personally know came from the volly ranks and didnt go to a fire college, must mean something to somebody

[wilderness]

Scuba, three out of 15 firefighters may be a big cut for this department, but then again, since when is it Ottawa's responsibility or any other Full time Department City responsibility to pay for and provide training for these smaller communities. Fire College courses are free. Send your guys away and train them on your purse, not mine.

now thats funny you should bring this up..... we train and we train hard, we send guys to the OFC, and almost anywhere else they would like to go for training, now it seems we must be doing something right, for we have had 3 guys in the last year who never went to any of the fire schools, become fulltime... so why can't they volunteer, we trained them not the ottawa tax payers........ And those fire course that are so free, trust me i pay and pay dearly to take them courses... my family and work suffer, but i never hear and complaints from them or my employer... so as of us robbing from your purse, i think not...

[dentedhead]

No, I meant what I said...are you trying to say that the guy/gal who plays slo-pitch 4 nights a week and on weekends is trained the same as any of the Blue Jays? NO...that is their profession, what they trained long and hard to do! Some of the guys/gals getting hired today have years, not hours; of fire service education...plus specialty courses!

Now I'm sure that there are vollies out there with similar resumes, but they're probably trying to get on FT somewhere...and when they do, they're no longer vollies, thats what started this whole discussion 43 posts ago!

I don't intend to pi$$-off any vollies...a few years ago I was one, and many of my family members still are vollies; but the training and experience is not the same.

But we can start a new forum if you want to attack me on that one!

Bro since your fairly new Ill give you a heads up.This is a horse as been flogged beyond legally dead.They even locked the threadLOL

Dentedhead

[FFWannabe]

Geeez, I spent the weekend moving, come back to find out my questions about volunteering when you are a fulltimer have once again turned into, "it's the same", "no it isn't" "Yes, it is" "no, it isn't!" lol! It's not the same. One gets paid the other doesn't.

My question was pretty aptly answered by ab and I think with a little intercede from Kearly... basicaly, if you want to look at it in it's most simplistic form, the Union wants you at work, ready to work and not injured from your other work. They want you to conduct yourself, personally and privately, in a manner that will keep you out of harms way (which is a little ironic, isn't it) and able to perform your job to the best of your ability. I guess taking sick leave as a fulltimer because you injured yourself as a volunteer would suck. I know you can hurt yourself crossing the street or doing cartwheels, but like I said, I'm looking at it simplistically. Also, if you accept a jop and it says, "Do A, B and C; and not X, Y and Z" you either accept it or you don't.

As for fulltimers being pulled away from volunteer roles, how can there be that many people who want to be firefighters and that few who are volunteers in the meantime. If it wasn't for my daughter I would have moved outside the city and tried to join a volunteer myself, not for the experience (okay, well yes), or the training or the points on a resume, but just because I want to do it!

Anyway, thanks to those who stayed on topic and gave me some answers, clear as mud!! (just kidding, the reasoning seems pretty clear).

Sue :)

[bcfire]

Whoa, Whoa. This whole argument has so many emtional and territorial/attitudinal issues connected with it, that it will never be solved.Before you spout off, think! What does the taxpaying public in your area see? If you are IAFF in the city,then you are a full-time ,paid, professional with all of the training opportunities,call frequency and advantages that that entails.As a result,you (as a rule) do not do any community service work on your days off. You may and most likely, do work with, or for off-duty firefighters in various businesses be they carpentry,plumbing etc.There is no need for you to even consider being a double hatter because they just don't exist in your world.This fact gives your personal constitution a pro-union slant.
If you are IAFF and work/live toward the urban fringe of a large city,which is most likely to have a volunteer department,you will see things in a different light.The out-lying career stations are in transition,they are not as busy as their downtown brethren and they have vollies in close proximity.The vollies in these areas, having traditionally had free reign,see the encroaching urban sprawl as a threat.You may, if you live far enough out, where fire services receive a small portion of community tax dollars and have to fund-raise to afford modern and up-to-date equipment,decide that you want to help protect your family on your days off.You may tend to be more involved in your day to day community life and don't, for financial reasons work at a second job.
As a full-time career firefighter, your skills and expertise cannot be matched nor bought in your community.Your only motivation is to help out.You may attend 100 to 200 calls (if you happen to be off for every one of them for a whole year)As the city grows and the tax/population base increases,your area will inevitably become full-time IAFF and you will no longer have to contribute to your community in the way that you have in the past.
As you can see,I would never support replacing IAFF firefighters with volunteers or part-timers for that matter.The areas in which full-time halls are required is a totally different world from which POC/Vollies operate. I see the evolution from vollie hall to full-time as progress and therefore a necessary transformation.
The Canadian public does not discern a firefighter from Ottawa as being any different from a firefighter from Come-by-Chance.They expect the same level of competence/caring and commitment.Firefighters across the country have done this for hundreds of years.The volunteer service happens to out number their career brothers by about 20 to 1.We after all, are in the same business.The public sees us as being the same.We all do the same job,with of course differing frequency.
Please, before you insult your brother,see which reality he is faced with, and remember, it just is not cut and dried.
I have to say, it was both painful and disturbing to see and read the acrimonious comments from members of the Canadian Fire Service.I don't believe any firefighter would ever pass a person needing assistance without doing what he could to help.
Take care, BCFIRE

[Buckster]

well said bcfire

[Workingfire]

bcfire seems to be the most diplomatic one out of all of us! An educated and un-emotional opinion is nice to see! I guess the closer you are to the problem the more you want to see it resolved once and for all. Hopefully it can be done.

I've taken some heat here in the last few days, but that's ok...this is a touchy subject for some.

Personally i'm finished with this topic, we could argue for months. Lets just remember that when it gets real dark and real hot; we're all on the same side.

Now...red or yellow trucks ? lol

[bcfire]

I guess the closer you are to the problem the more you want to see it resolved once and for all. Hopefully it can be done.

There really should be no problem.IAFF should not bully members (and I stress the word "members") who live in out-lying non union areas. I realistically don't think nor believe that any union member would ever give/volunteer his time to replace or put a fellow member out of work. It just would not happen.All of the other arguments such as tiredness etc. is just an excuse, smoke and mirrors(we all know firefighters are active as hell on their days off-admit it)
Realistically,communities will contract out to IAFF when they are able to afford it,because the poc/vollies will already be at the maximum service level that any community could expect from such a resource.IAFF members through their service to their home communities, do not delay the transition. It happens all around them.The most positive and beneficial result for the growing community was being able to have benefitted from the level of expertise for a period of time that the career firefighter was able to provide.What really needs to happen is for the IAFF to get off their collective asses and point this difference out to city negotiators instead of robbing small towns and communities of an incredible resource. Nuff said BCFIRE

[iamvff]

I have just read this thread from start to finish, and am wound right up!! There are so many arrogant idiots in the world it is unbelievable! Why is it that someone can take any thread topic, and turn it into....volunteer are untrained idiots?? Weekend warriors??? This thread is about whether it is ethical or proper for fulltime union firefighters to work on thier off-time in a volunteer department! Please try to debate the issue! If you wish to start a topic on the training (or as you think..the lack of)of volunteer firefighters. Start a thread on that topic! Sorry for the rant, Trust me, I know I am not the posting god by any means, but we are all supposed to be friends here! Whats with the irrelevant cutdowns getting thrown in when you have nothing intelligent to say!!

iamvff

For the record, I think that career FF should be allowed to be on Volly dept's. unless the time comes for that community to become fulltime (Large call volume), and the community is still using fulltimers to supplement their volly dept because they don't want to pay the wages, then I agree that the fulltimers should not remain as volunteers, so the pressure is on that community to become full time. If you take a community like mine, POP. 1100, middle of nowhere, and we probably respond to 40-60 calls a year on average, it would be impossible to have a fulltime dept. therefore there would be no issues of volunteers taking up full time positions.

[ABFF37]

*music playing in background*
Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends...dumdadumdadum:D

AB;)

[Ladymedic]

For the record, I think that career FF should be allowed to be on Volly dept's. unless the time comes for that community to become fulltime (Large call volume), and the community is still using fulltimers to supplement their volly dept because they don't want to pay the wages, then I agree that the fulltimers should not remain as volunteers, so the pressure is on that community to become full time. If you take a community like mine, POP. 1100, middle of nowhere, and we probably respond to 40-60 calls a year on average, it would be impossible to have a fulltime dept. therefore there would be no issues of volunteers taking up full time positions.


Actually iamvff, you pretty much hit the nail on the head right there. It is no ones intention to "force" your type of Dept to become full time.

[irsqyu]

"As a result,you (as a rule) do not do any community service work on your days off."

BCFIRE, I have to take exception to this statement you made generalizing career firefighters.
As an example our department members are constantly involved in Community activities on their time off, a few are:
Building Habitat for Humanity homes
Bingo's for MD
Building lodges at Camp Bucko
BBQ for long term patients at the local hospital
Fundraising, we have donated 100's of thousands to local community, such as hospital, hospices etc.
Every platoon adopts two families every Chritmas and each firefighter donates personally to give these families a better Christmas.

These are just a SMALL example of the community service we do, I would bet that every career department is the same.
I believe every firefighter vollie or career is the type of person that enjoys these activities, that's part of the reason we are all here!! To help others.

Again let's put these debates to bed, and realize we are all here to do the same thing, HELP OTHERS :)

[smoke286]

Indeed, many of us have been involved in community charity work since we joined the fire dept

[bestcoast]

Again let's put these debates to bed, and realize we are all here to do the same thing, HELP OTHERS :)
I second that..........BC................

[five_alarm]

OTTAWA, ON - From the people who brought you the three-, six- and nine-per-cent bonus comes a move that questions who runs Ottawa's fire service -- the taxpayers or the firefighters union. We side with the people who pay the bill.

The Ottawa Professional Firefighters Association is telling five of its members to stop serving during their off hours as volunteer firefighters in rural areas or face expulsion from the union. The association maintains that it can revoke the association membership of the "double-hatters," but without union membership, the double-hatters can't work in Ottawa, because the Ottawa fire service is a closed union shop. This is going too far.

One of the basic rights in any workplace is the ability to hire and fire, and that right resides with management, which in this case represents the will of the people of Ottawa. Fortunately, the city seems ready to defend that right. Steve Kanellakos, the deputy city manager for community and protective services, says the city would fight a move to have the union force double-hatters out of jobs.

Source: canada.com (http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/soundoff/story.html?id=eddd393b-298d-435f-bbf5-29af0f01988d)

[Scuba]

Hey F-A you use your super sized spoon to stir that one with? LOL

We all agreed to drop it...and there you go adding fuel to the fire :D

j/k j/k

[FFWannabe]

And the plot thickens... that's the same point I don't get... you can't be a volunteer ff, but you can work an 8 hour day in between your two night shifts! Ah well, it will be interesting to see where this one goes!

Sue :confused:

[irsqyu]

I was just wondering, I know there was an amalgamation in the Ottawa area, does this situation have anything to do with Career Firefighters working POC with any of these amalgamated departments. Basicically working for the same employer?

This is what happened with the Hamilton amalgamation.

[FFWannabe]

I don't think Ottawa has POC resq. I could be wrong, it's been known to happen from time to time... but I think it's fulltime and vollie only.

Sue :)

[Scuba]

I don't think Ottawa has POC resq. I could be wrong, it's been known to happen from time to time... but I think it's fulltime and vollie only.

Sue :)

All volunteer halls in Ottawa are Paid On Call - but - (insert speculation) I think they're saying it to all volunteers regardless of being within the city limits or not.

[FFWannabe]

All volunteer halls in Ottawa are Paid On Call - but - (insert speculation) I think they're saying it to all volunteers regardless of being within the city limits or not.

Really??? Hmmm, I did not know that... that makes sense... but yeah, they certainly aren't stipulating are they?

Sue :confused:

[bcfire]

[As an example our department members are constantly involved in Community activities on their time off, a few are:
Building Habitat for Humanity homes
Bingo's for MD
Building lodges at Camp Bucko
BBQ for long term patients at the local hospital
Fundraising, we have donated 100's of thousands to local community, such as hospital, hospices etc.
Every platoon adopts two families every Chritmas and each firefighter donates personally to give these families a better Christmas.

Ya Ya Ya, this is what your whole FD does.I didn't mean to convey that Firefighters are not a generous and caring lot.Most guys have a side job that takes up their days off on a regular basis.I only mentioned it to illustrate that as a volunteer ff way out on the urban fringe, you will not show up on shift any more worn or tired than your downtown urban brother.BCFIRE

[BCFFFV]

I also must state that the local I belong to does an incredible amount of charity work. It surprises me just how much time people put into things outside of the paid hours.

[five_alarm]

SHAKESPEARE, ON - An investigarion of an Oct. 20 house fire in Shakespeare by the Ontario Fire Marshal is looking squarely at the controversial two-hatter issue and community safety. The probe ordered by Bernard Moyle will examine the Perth East Fire Department's response to the late-morning blaze, which caused about $50,000 damage to a two-storey home in the west end of the village and killed a pet cat.

The Vounteer Fire Department had trouble mustering enough bodies to meet minimum provincial responde guidelines and had to ask for help from its Milverton affiliate 20 minutes away. At the same time, two Shakespeare volunteers -- so-called two-hatters because they're also full-time professional firefighters -- were home with thier pagers off because they're facing sanctions from their union in Stratford.

Source: oafc.on.ca (http://www.oafc.on.ca/files/BeaconHerald-ShakespeareFire-2hatters.pdf)

[wilderness]

i,m sure the boss is sitting behind his desk with a big "i just ate the cat" smile on his face.

[FFWannabe]

I still don't completely understand if it isn't to get towns to join the union, why grown men and women can't make their own decisions to respond to fires as volunteers. Just like every other volunteer, if they're at work or needed at work shortly, they can choose whether or not to respond.
Dumbfounded....

Sue :confused:

[bestcoast]

I think it was just a matter of time before an incident like this one would occur. However I don't think the Ottawa local will change their stance on the issue. Not saying it's right or wrong but double hatters are not allowed on my job either. Never have never will........BC........

[FFWannabe]

I do have to wonder, with so many people wanting to be firefighters, why towns can't get enough volunteers out. I would love to volunteer, if it wouldn't take me 20-30 minutes to get to the nearest hall.... lol

Sue :)

[BCFFFV]

Problem is most people are struggling to get by as it is. Not many people have the time to volunteer with trying to support families etc. It's a huge commitment for people.

[dentedhead]

I do have to wonder, with so many people wanting to be firefighters, why towns can't get enough volunteers out. I would love to volunteer, if it wouldn't take me 20-30 minutes to get to the nearest hall.... lol

Sue :)

Bingo,unfortunatly you are seeing local volunteers dwindle as more and more communities are becoming the burbs.I could be wrong but I prolly think that many of these newcomers arent as interested in being FF but would be the first to complain about a staffing issue.

NOT STARTING A FIGHT HERE OKAY,but there are prolly a POC dept or two around that wouldnt take a fulltimer from elsewhere on.We have one not too far from us, there are guys that live in the area and work in the GTA who have been told sorry not interested.

Your question is very valid,if guys and gals would love to do it and have the flexibility to do so why not set up a stn based volunteer system it wouldnt cost the dept anything other than a bed or two.I think there may be one or two depts in Ont that currently do this.It is a workable solution.There are volunteer fire companies all through the US that staff 24/7 with POC in quarters.

Dentedhead

[tr23]

There are volunteer fire companies all through the US that staff 24/7 with POC in quarters.

Dentedhead

You mean the FF's are in the halls, but only get paid when the tones go?

I have spoken to the closest volly halls in my area, and I'm simply to far to respond. I live in a city, with full-time FD, and my response time to a volly hall would be at least 15 mins in good weather. I would love to volunteer, and not for the sake of getting on FT somewhere.

TR23

[firefighter26]

I know there are a few departments stateside who offer a simple trade to those going to university or college in the area. You can stay at the FD dorm free of charge (usually at the station or across the street or some other close by location) but when you are not in class or doing whatever it is you are doing (working, out of district, etc) you respond to calls.

Of course, they would have to have training requirements, etc, etc, but to me it didn't seem like a bad deal!

[dentedhead]

You mean the FF's are in the halls, but only get paid when the tones go?

I have spoken to the closest volly halls in my area, and I'm simply to far to respond. I live in a city, with full-time FD, and my response time to a volly hall would be at least 15 mins in good weather. I would love to volunteer, and not for the sake of getting on FT somewhere.

TR23


Thats exactly what I mean. Years ago there were 2 or 3 volunteer ambulance services in Ontario if you lived in town it was the same as fire, toned out from home. If you were not local or if you lived too far from the station you could stay at the stn day or night.No pay whether you were on a call or not.

Dentedhead

[ssifire]

You mean the FF's are in the halls, but only get paid when the tones go?
TR23

We're doing a pilot project right now at one of our halls with very few members living in the area. We, the dept, provide free rent, at the hall in exchange for responding to calls (POC), and maintening the hall and apparatus.

There are a few halls in BC using this model. It seems to be working well for them.

[firefighter26]

I work about 40 minutes from where I live. I know the FD in the area of my work, which is only a few blocks away, is short handed during the day. I asked their chief if I could join and help out during the daytime hours. My boss was cool with it as some days we are really slow (and I am sure my boss would rather see me going on a call during the slow days so she wouldn't have to pay me to sit around!). I could attend all the practice nights, etc (as they were a different day then my used-to-be-regular FD practice nights) and I basically came pre-trained.

No go because I didn't actually live in the area.

On another note, I have done some ride alongs with some FDs in MN that were combo-POC (running 1200-1300 calls a year from three stations) and they had a bunk section complete with 10 of those fancy wall fold down bunks for members to use if they wanted to stay the night at the station, etc. They took members from the neighbouring districts on approval of that districts chief, etc.

The funny thing about some volunteer departments around here is that some have a waiting list up to 2-3 years long while others have a hard enough time putting together a dozen or firefighters and use the "any warm body" method of recruiting.

[iamvff]

There are less volunteers for several reasons! #1- there is less money available in smaller rural municiple budgets to be spread around! Therefore some of the programs that used to be readily available were debatable expenditures and if the people who utilized these programs wanted to keep them running...start volunteering! Plus...many households are 2 job families now just to make ends meet! With this being said...people are just spread to thin, there are far more volunteers required in life, more commitments to family time, and people are simply prioritizing their lives! You would jump at the chance Sue...because as is with me...it is high on your priority list! #2- specifically in the volunteer fire world...Liability, Liability....Liability!!! We are now in a world of everybody sues for anything that happened! Years ago, the volly fire world was basically a bucket brigade (and have my utmost respect), due to quality of equipment, lack of training..etc..etc..In the last few years I have noticed that training on volunteer departments has increased considerably, because people are starting to realize that they are paying a good dollar for quality emergency services, and volunteer or not....it better be there on time, and it had better be done properly! The comittment to a volunteer department aint what it used to be! Meetings twice a month is just the tip of the ice berg! Level 1 training is becoming required (100 hour course) level 2 is starting to become higher on the priority list of FF (100 hour course) fire ground management, SAR, hazmat....the list goes on and on. this is all on top of trying to hold down a regular job, and have time for the kids and wifey! It is only going to get tougher for volunteer departments! DH...you are right on the money....if we could get our hands on a couple of experienced full timers...absolutely, why wouldn't we welcome them with open arms! The ambulance service is seeing this right now in Manitoba, many of the services do not have the volunteer base anymore and in the last 3 or 4 yers, the RHA has started to place hired full time attendants into the rural areas. This is a little tougher to do for fire service, because of the quantity of man/woman power required per call! Sorry for the lenghty post...hope it sheds a little light


iamvff :)

[ABFF37]

I know of a couple of POC departments around here that require members to sign up for a certain number of shifts each month during which they will man the hall. This gives 24 hour coverage in some cases, or in others a front line truck manned during peak hours. Seems to work well for them, and keeps a relatively reasonable level of fire protection around the clock.

AB

[cdnbacon]

I know there are a few departments stateside who offer a simple trade to those going to university or college in the area. You can stay at the FD dorm free of charge (usually at the station or across the street or some other close by location) but when you are not in class or doing whatever it is you are doing (working, out of district, etc) you respond to calls.

Of course, they would have to have training requirements, etc, etc, but to me it didn't seem like a bad deal!

I did this when I went to school in Alaska. They were a number of fire depts that did it in the area. I had an awesome experience there. Our shift was a 24 on 48 off. With us at the station was also a twenty four hr officer who was a paid position.

The local university's fire dept was for the most part was all university students who got paid while on shift.

[tr23]

I know there are a few departments stateside who offer a simple trade to those going to university or college in the area. You can stay at the FD dorm free of charge (usually at the station or across the street or some other close by location) but when you are not in class or doing whatever it is you are doing (working, out of district, etc) you respond to calls.

I've heard of that system. I think it's a great approach. Would be an awesome memory of university, even if you left the fire service after. I imagine many members would pursue FFing as a career after too.

I also think that it's great for departments to have guys at the hall on shift. Especially if it does provide that first due engine, or even 24hr coverage. The reason I asked was I was slightly surprised members could afford to sign up for the shifts. I suppose you make room in your schedule for important things.

Thanks for all the info.

TR23

[Scuba]

Fire Marshall Probes Loss of 'Double-Hatters'
Josh Pringle
Friday, November 04, 2005 4:28 AM



Ontario's Fire Marshall is concerned a union's threat to fire "double-hatters" may be compromising public safety.

Four Ottawa firefighters have quit volunteering at rural volunteer fire departments at the demands of their unions.

Fire Marshall Bernard Moyle is investigating Ottawa Valley forces to see if safety is being compromised by the union's bid to stop professional firefighters from volunteering. Moyle wants Ontario to pass legislation protecting double-hatters from dismissal.

[wilderness]

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaa baby

[five_alarm]

OTTAWA, ON - Ontario's fire marshal has launched an investigation into whether public safety is at risk as a result of the resignations of "double-hatters" -- just as four Ottawa firefighters have agreed to union demands that they quit volunteering at rural volunteer fire departments.

Fire marshal Bernard Moyle has sent inspectors to the Ottawa Valley to look at whether rural forces are being compromised by the union's bid to stop professional firefighters from volunteering outside the city on their own time, a practice known as "double-hatting."

"If they are jeopardizing these people in small communities, then I have a responsibility to tell the government," Mr. Moyle said. "It's up to the government to decide if they are going to deal with this situation." For two years, Mr. Moyle has been calling for legislation in Ontario to protect double-hatters from dismissal; every other province and territory, except Newfoundland, has such a law.

Source: canada.com (http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=de38336e-7303-4f79-bd78-21619eef650a)