London Firefighter retention pay called into question

[five_alarm]

LONDON, ON - London lost just one firefighter to another department during the last five years, raising doubts about the need for extra pay to discourage firefighters from leaving. "I think that points out that the whole concept of retention pay shouldn't apply to the fire department," said Deputy Mayor Tom Gosnell, city council's budget chief.

But the president of the firefighters' association says the issue is about wage parity with police, not retention. "When they gave experiential pay to police on a silver platter, what questions were raised about it then?" said Jim Holmes. "If this wasn't something we didn't think was right or morally sound, we wouldn't ask for it. Parity (with police) has become part of our normal wage package."

In Toronto, where retention pay for firefighters was negotiated last year, an official said the department had lost more than 100 firefighters to smaller departments during five years.

Source: lfpress.ca (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2005/10/21/1272269-sun.html)

[irsqyu]

I think the politicians need to take a look at what retention pay is all about, it's definetly not about losing firefighters to other departments. With our pension plans, senior firefighters can typically retire when they are in their mid fifties. With today's demographics a lot of departments have a large number of junior less experienced members, the department I am on, I believe has more than 50% of the firefighters with less than 5yrs experience.The retention pay is an incentive to keep the experienced firefighters on the job a little longer, helping to balance things out.The extra percentage definetly affects the pension when you look at the best 5 consecutive years.:cool:

[jeffhubb]

That's why it needs to be called recognation pay like most departments are preferring to call it. I know that's what we call it in TO.

[smoke286]

Yup,jeffhubb is correct, you need to stay clear of the "retention" issue. Ain't no one quiting the fire service

[five_alarm]

LONDON, ON - London may have little chance of reining in its firefighters' salaries if an arbitrator follows a Markham decision and recent deals cut in other cities, a specialist says. And that means the city could be throwing away tens of thousands of dollars for an arbitration it has little chance of winning -- an option the city rejected when they gave retention pay to police.

"Once there's a trend established, it becomes like a snowball rolling down a hill," said Michael Lynk, a specialist in labour law at the University of Western Ontario. A trend is clearly emerging, Lynk said, noting five cities -- Toronto, Windsor, Hamilton, Sudbury and Brampton -- negotiated retention pay for firefighters and an arbitrator awarded Markham firefighters the salary premium paid for years of service.

When asked, Lynk agreed it's possible London's decision to go to arbitration could be more about deflecting blame than winning.

Source: lfpress.ca (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2005/10/22/1273701-sun.html)

[five_alarm]

LONDON, ON - London politicians and business leaders want the province to fix an arbitration system they say unfairly costs local taxpayers millions of dollars a year more for police, firefighters and paramedics. "If (arbitrators) paid more attention to the different circumstances in each municipality, then it would be fair and I don't think anybody could really argue," Mayor Anne Marie DeCicco said. But the city gets little sympathy from arbitration experts and union leaders.

"Even though there's been some decisions, expensive ones that have gone against municipalities, that doesn't mean the system is broken," said University of Western Ontario law Prof. Richard McLaren, a world-renowned arbitration expert. "It means the system isn't giving them the result they want."

After winning millions more this year in federal and provincial funding, plus a reprieve from downloading of costly new services and regulations, the city has shifted its budget blame to arbitration. That's because firefighters across the province, including London's, appear poised to win the same retention pay police receive.

Source: lfpress.ca (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2005/10/24/1275824-sun.html)

[dentedhead]

When asked, Lynk agreed it's possible London's decision to go to arbitration could be more about deflecting blame than winning. Exerpted from LFP article.

The classic management ploy.Instead of awarding the submission in good faith send it to arb cost management and labour thousands of dollars and then point the finger at the arbitrator and tell the taxpayer its the arbitrators fault.Nice!!

Dentedhead

[smoke286]

The classic management ploy.Instead of awarding the submission in good faith send it to arb cost management and labour thousands of dollars and then point the finger at the arbitrator and tell the taxpayer its the arbitrators fault.Nice!!

Sounds more then vaguely familiar

[five_alarm]

LONDON, ON - London firefighters and the city took their battle over a new contract and the controversial retention pay to arbitration Monday. The two sides will present arguments to a three-person arbitration panel at a downtown hotel.

"I'm disappointed we have to go this way," said Jim Holmes, president of the London Professional Firefighters Association. The key issue is retention pay the city says it can't afford and firefighters don't deserve since there's no shortage of firefighters or applicants for the job. The association argues the issue is about wage parity with police, who receive retention pay.

Source: lfpress.ca (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2005/11/19/1313539-sun.html)

[Leafs Fan]

Is it me or does the London Free Press seem a little bias in their reporting. I get a negative slant in their artlicles that isn't good for the LPFFA.

Also, I have heard a rumour that Vaughn lost their arbitration and will not be getting the 3,6,9. Can anyone confirm that?

[kriand]

Also, I have heard a rumour that Vaughn lost their arbitration and will not be getting the 3,6,9. Can anyone confirm that?
yes i can confirm it..........We got Screwed!!!!!!!!!!
and we lost some benefits too.......we did get our raise, however it only brings us back on line to the other FD's and PD's in our area.
We are having an emergency union meeting Nov 24 to bring everyone up to speed. should have more details then.

Moral is dropping faster than the Raptors season.

[five_alarm]

VAUGHAN, ON - The ride has ended badly for Vaughan firefighters, who had been hoping to piggyback on a victory scored earlier this year by Markham firefighters. 'I'm dumbfounded that a government arbitrator would release an award of this nature," said John Krasnokutsky, president of the Vaughan firefighters' association.

"In his decision to ignore the main body of our submissions, the arbitrator has denied each and every one of our members the benefits that are shared by neighbouring police and fire departments." Last spring, Mr. Krasnokutsky was confident his union would ride the coattails of Markham firefighters, who won a significant arbitration ruling.

Source: yorkregion.com (http://www.yorkregion.com/yr/yr4/YR_News/Newscentre/The_Liberal/story/3193733p-3699475c.html)

[smoke286]

That could bode badly for other locals in Ont. Both those fighting for it, and those who have already won it.

[five_alarm]

LONDON, ON - London firefighters and city negotiators return to the bargaining table tomorrow to see if they can cut a deal. The move comes as both sides await the outcome of an arbitration hearing last month. "I think we both want to see if there's been any movement by either side," said London Professional Firefighters Association president Jim Holmes.

"It's one last-ditch effort to see if there's any hope of a negotiated agreement." The firefighters requested the meeting, Holmes said. Jeff Fielding, the city's chief administrator, confirmed the meeting. "We continue to hope we can find a resolution and we're going ahead on that basis," Fielding said. The last contract covering the association's 367 members, including 330 firefighters, expired Jan. 1, 2004.

Source: lfpress.ca (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2005/12/14/1352033-sun.html)

[five_alarm]

LONDON, ON - In an unusual move, an arbitrator has called the city and its firefighters to get together for one more shot at negotiating a new contract. Jim Holmes, president of the London Professional Firefighters Association, confirmed yesterday the association and city have been ordered back for mediation March 31.

Unlike the arbitration hearing last November, the mediation will be held behind closed doors, Holmes said. "This is kind of unheard of," said Holmes, who'd been awaiting a ruling since November. "I'm not sure why he's called us back, but if he thinks we can reach a deal, we'll go back to the table. We'd like to reach an agreement."

The last contract covering the association's 367 members, including 330 firefighters, expired Jan. 1, 2004.

Source: lfpress.ca (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2006/02/17/1447782-sun.html)

[five_alarm]

LONDON, ON - Negotiators for London firefighters and the city will meet on Friday to try to cut a deal on a new contract. In an unusual move, an arbitrator called both sides back to the table for a mediation session starting at 9 a.m. at The Hilton hotel.

The arbitrator has already heard pitches from both sides and, if the two sides can’t reach an agreement, is expected to release his decision. The key issue appears to be wage parity with police, along with the controversial retention pay negotiated by police last year. Both sides remained hopeful for a negotiatied settlement....

...London firefighters, who earn a base salary of $64,175 for a first-class firefighter, want the same wage and retention pay as police. That means firefighters will be looking for a deal that matches the one police officers and civilian employees negotiated earlier this month, giving them a 6.1-per-cent pay raise over the next two years.

Source: lfpress.ca (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2006/03/30/1512919.html)

[five_alarm]

LONDON, ON - Negotiators for London firefighters and the city, unable to reach a deal in contract mediation, are awaiting an arbitrator's ruling. In an unusual move, an arbitrator called both sides to a mediation session last Friday at a downtown hotel that failed to resolve any issues.

The key issue appears to be wage parity with police for firefighters, along with the controversial retention pay negotiated by police last year.

Source: lfpress.ca (http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2006/04/06/1522157-sun.html)

[smoke286]

It might be a good idea for those locals who have already successfully negotiated "recognition pay" to roll it up in something else next round of negotiations to avoid the chance of losing it down the road

[oldboot]

The big mistake some locals are making is calling it retention pay.
If you are not losing members to other departments it can be hard to justify to the politicians why you need it.
The Toronto local gave up their existing long service pay and their 2% senior man pay.
It was also asked for it to be called recognition pay, for the years of dedicated service to the good citizens of Toronto
3% for 8-16 yrs. 6% 17-22yrs. and 9% for over 23 yrs. which is all included in our pensionable earnings.

[BCFFFV]

The big mistake some locals are making is calling it retention pay.
If you are not losing members to other departments it can be hard to justify to the politicians why you need it.
The Toronto local gave up their existing long service pay and their 2% senior man pay.
It was also asked for it to be called recognition pay, for the years of dedicated service to the good citizens of Toronto
3% for 8-16 yrs. 6% 17-22yrs. and 9% for over 23 yrs. which is all included in our pensionable earnings.


I don't get this really.....Maybe if they are paying retention pay and NOT losing firefighters it's because the RETENTION pay thingy worked????? Seems logical to me!

[oldboot]

I know it sounds strange, but this is how most politicians think!
It is funny how one word will make them want to negotiate it away and the other they seem to be able to live with, even though they both do exactly the same thing.

[smoke286]

Politicians and beauracrats live and die by words