BC paramedics could get breathing masks

[five_alarm]

KIMBERLEY, BC - The internal investigation into the recent deaths of two paramedics (http://www.firehall.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7245) at the old Sullivan mine in Kimberley will consider whether B.C. should follow the lead of other provinces and equip paramedics with breathing masks... The paramedics were not wearing masks, but the firefighters who went in later wore masks and were able to work safely. John Strohmaier of the paramedics union said he's not sure masks are needed, but said that's something the Kimberley investigators will look into.Source: cbc.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/bc/story/bc_masks-paramedics20060601.html?ref=rss)

[PEMS17]

Wow, we're gonna need trailers soon. Don't get me wrong, the events that just transpired were horrific, however even if the medics had SCBA available, the odds that they would have used it at this incident was remote. My understanding is that they went to a call for a man down, that became 4 down. The circumstances of the call did not suggest an oxygen deficient environment.(speculating the cause based on media reports). My guess is they, (the two medics and the caller) entered the shed and before they knew it or could react, collapsed and the makings of a trajedy unfolded. Personnally I don't think they did anything wrong, and I would have done the same thing. Having one person collapsed in an out building with no indicators of a toxic environment is not going to set off alarm bells. Now if there were a couple people, bells start going off. Unfortunately, the availability of scba in this case, imho, would not have changed the outcome. They would have responded as many of us have done; the only difference was this incident was anything but "routine"
Locally we carry masks with eyeshields, N-95's if needed. The region also has two caches of CPC available if we need it. We only have APR, so if it's O2 deficient we are breathing clean air with no oxygen:rolleyes:

[Toxic]

I agree PEMS. This sounds like a kneejerk reaction. I think a better reccomendation would be for the mine to put Hydrogen Sulfide (or O2 deficiency) warning signs up. That followed up with some training for emergency repsonders on atmospheric hazards (unless that is already part of their training matrix) seems to me a better solution.

Not pointing fingers in any way here. Just my 2 cents on a very tragic incident.

[Ladymedic]

Knee jerk reaction is an understatement! :rolleyes: First you have the BC Ministry of Labour rep ominously wondering why the crew wasn't wearing their "protective gear" in previous articles (sounds like a rep who's right up on things), and now they are suggesting that every EMS person be issued SCBA. As PEMS mentioned, where would we put it all? Not to mention it is unecessary. In this particular case it would seem there was no indication to the crew that they were entering a hazardous environment, so even had SCBA been available to them, they probably would not have worn it. As for the N95 filtering out "most toxins", they will do absolutely nothing in the event of a gas or oxygen deficient environment, hell they won't even protect us from TB. Personally, leave the SCBA to the FD. Besides, they're hell on the hair do :D :p

[North_of_60]

Ladymedic, it just means that the entire fleet of Ambulances in BC needs to be changed to Medium Duty Rescue ambulances (ie. Freightliner M2 chassied Ambulances) and all paramedics need to have training in SCBA. While we are at it why don't we train them in Firefighting and we can move to a single Fire/EMS Service for the entire province....Somehow I don't think so!!!!

Maybe what would be more important would be a gas detector in every unit. This way when going for an unknown collapse in a potentially hazardous environment the meter would give you 02/H2S/CO readings so that you would know when you might be getting into trouble.

It was a tragic event, but I agree with everyone's posts that breathing masks on board would not have prevented it. I wish that people would look at practical solutions as opposed to what will get them re-elected.

Stay Safe and remember, there is no such thing as a routine call.

North of 60

[BCFFFV]

They aren't saying they NEED full SCBA a firefighter would wear. There are small masks available with emergency air for cases like this. I also don't think the paramedics did anything wrong. But it seems that in the future they could easily make an SOG that any call to a mine or similar environment require them to take the masks with them.

[ABFF37]

Personally, leave the SCBA to the FD.

My thoughts exactly....
------------------------------------------

In this specific case, I don't think that the medics could have done anything differently. My understanding is that the inital victim was found in some sort of a well or other water source within the mine building, and the thought was that the call was drowning related. However it appears the actual problem was the oxygen deficient environment, which may have caused the victim to lose consciousness and fall into the water.

I think I can understand where the two paramedics heads were at as they responded to the call...they're thinking one way when unfortunately in reality the situation is another (drowning vs. oxygen deficient environment). Because of that I think even if they had SCBA available to them, I don't imagine that they would have necessarily put it on.

Furthermore, the use of SCBA and the entry into contaminated or potentially contaminated environments is not the responsibility of an EMS worker, that is what the fire department does. Just like the job of an EMS worker is not to enter an unsafe medical scene where weapons or the threat of violence may be present, until the police can secure the scene. In this case, the idea is the same, in retrospect firefighters should have secured the scene and removed the patients while using the proper PPE then turned patient care over to EMS. I really think that the implementation of SCBA into EMS units is unecessary, and that it also blurs the lines in the emergency services fields so to speak.

Each emergency service has a role to play, and IMHO the entry into a contaminated environment and the use of SCBA is not the responsibility of EMS. Placing SCBA in ambulances just puts EMS crews in an awkward and potentially dangerous situation.

AB

[BCFFFV]

That's the best scenario.....but does anybody on here even know what rescources are available in Kimberley as far as a Fire Dept. is concerned?????

[Dave404]

That's the best scenario.....but does anybody on here even know what rescources are available in Kimberley as far as a Fire Dept. is concerned?????

Excellent point - we have no idea what SOP/SOG's they run. As for this "knee jerk reaction", just another politician that doesnt have a clue. Answer the simple questions and make this a learning experience for not only BC emergency personal, but for all emergency personal.

1) Is their an sop/sog for entering a mine?
2) Was the protocol followed?
3) is the protocol flawed?
4) How do we improve our SOP's and TRAINING to prevent similar incidents?

On a personal level - I would not enter a rig site without: A- being accompanied by the rig safety person with the correct warning equipment, (B) My own gas analyzer for my own peace of mind. As for giving EMS air packs.....well OK as long as you TRAIN with them, develop an accountability system, provide SOP's and train some more.........oh wait the FD already does that.
Just my thoughts - any one else want to join me in left field!:D

[northernmedic]

In this situation they did not respond into the mine itself. They responded to a shed on the property that was a common location for workers to go in and out of. The call came out as a collapse and another worker had already entered the shed and spotted the patient lying face down in a pool of water. I'm pretty sure Kimberley fire does not do first responder so I don't know if they would have responded initially. I don't have any more room on my ambulance for anything else, and frankly dishing out SCBA's etc is not a good solution. Should I wear it every time I enter a house since it might be a meth lab? etc etc. This was a tragedy and we need to learn what we can from it but at the end of the day I think just about anyone that went in there probably would have done the exact same thing.

[BCFFFV]

In this situation they did not respond into the mine itself. They responded to a shed on the property that was a common location for workers to go in and out of. The call came out as a collapse and another worker had already entered the shed and spotted the patient lying face down in a pool of water. I'm pretty sure Kimberley fire does not do first responder so I don't know if they would have responded initially. I don't have any more room on my ambulance for anything else, and frankly dishing out SCBA's etc is not a good solution. Should I wear it every time I enter a house since it might be a meth lab? etc etc. This was a tragedy and we need to learn what we can from it but at the end of the day I think just about anyone that went in there probably would have done the exact same thing.

Exactly.....it's a learning experience for all emergency service providers. Who knows if the Fire Dept. would have even worn their SCBA's without knowing the people were all unconscious.

[LFD_FF17]

ok so now that this has happend and you did have scba in your rig would you wear it if you were responding to a similar call knowing what happened to these medics?

[five_alarm]

CALGARY, AB - The situation presented to two paramedics killed at a mine site in British Columbia last month nothing but face masks available to protect them from the deadly air could replay across the country, says Canada's leading paramedic organization. The Paramedic Association of Canada (http://www.paramedic.ca/), representing 14,000 paramedics, surveyed many of its members following the deaths of Kimberley, B.C., paramedics Kim Weitzel and Shawn Currier on May 17.Source: National Post (http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=1951d6c8-84ef-4081-935a-b8b79f11f206&k=27124)

[firefighter26]

:D I got an idea...... why don't we outfit all the ambulances with air packs for all their paramedics, and since their using airpacks, we may as well start staffing 5 paramedics on an ambulance. You know, 2 in, 2 out, and an OIC/Accountability officer....... meanwhile, we can give them some type of hose or something to follow back out in case they get into trouble...... you know, connect it to the ambulance and maybe pump water into it to keep the charged in case of an emergency........ meanwhile, paramedics can start wearing more PPE........ maybe something made of nomex that has reflective stuff all over it....... oh, and don't forget the helmets for head protection, and boots in case they step on something sharp........ Meanwhile, we'll probably want to build some specific ambulance types, you know, some with ladders and others with rescue tools and whatnot....... since the ambulances are going to be so big now will this equipment on it, we may as well paint the thing red so that it is highly noticeable to the public when responding to an emergency.......... :D

ok, realistically.... What happen to the paramedics was a tragedy, plain and simple. But from what it sounds like there wasn't any of the tell tale indications that this was going to be a confined space/hazard environment style rescue. Just a simple employee collapse.... what was it dispatched as? What did the other on site personnel tell them? What did their scene assessment tell them?

I am sure that if the signs where there that the medics would have called for fire, and fire in turn would have brought all their toys and called for more toys from other departments to come out and play.... but hindsight is 20/20 and rather than making all the paramedics in canada respond in full environmental space suits, why not sink that money into increased hazard assessment training so that other crews will be able to better recognize the potential of this happening and be able to ask better questions before walking into a similar situation.

You know, the old pro-active vs re-active approach to things..... then again, this is the government.... they'll have their fancy review committees and reports and travel around and talk to everyone, and in a year no one will remember what happen (except the families and those of us that care about our brothers in arms, so to speak, no matter what service they are in) and nothing will really change because the spotlight will be on something else.

[PEMS17]

:D boots in case they step on something sharp........ Way ahead of you, just spent my yearly boot allowance on some beautiful CAT boots. Safe as can be:D