Lifeguards turned away help from CPR expert

[five_alarm]

MONCTON, NB - The young lifeguards who unsuccessfully tried to revive a drowning boy at Magic Mountain water park last summer were nothing more than children trying to be heroes, a retired surgical nurse told a coroner's inquest. Judith Day testified Wednesday at an inquest into the death of 12-year-old Kyle Debow, who drowned last August 7 in the water park's wave pool. Day was a registered nurse for 32 years, and taught CPR and first aid skills for 12 years.Source: cbc.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2006/06/29/nb-cpr-expert.html)

Drowning victim's mother testifies at inquest: cbc.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2006/06/27/nb-mother-inquest.html)

This sad story brings to light some serious issues:
1) In house policies of refusing help from unknown bystanders
2) Yielding control of a situation to more qualified personal

[Kearley]

Source: cbc.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2006/06/29/nb-cpr-expert.html)

Drowning victim's mother testifies at inquest: cbc.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2006/06/27/nb-mother-inquest.html)

This sad story brings to light some serious issues:
1) In house policies of refusing help from unknown bystanders
2) Yielding control of a situation to more qualified personal


I'm gonna play a little devil's advocate on this.

Refusing from unknown bystanders. Sure hindsights is 20/20, but what remains is the question of how the lifeguards would know that this nurse is a suitable bystander? How do they know that she isn't someone playing up their abilities to be a hero themselves? This has been the case before, to such an extent that as firefighters we know we have 4 questions to ask when approached by a self procraimed doctor. Are you a medical doctor? Are you licenced to practice in Ontario? Can I see some ID? Are you willing to take responsibility for this patient?

Yielding control of a situation to more qualified personal. Yes, there are protocals for that, tends to be for either fire or EMS. Until then, the lifeguards ARE (supposed to be at least) the qualified personel until either fire or EMS arrive. You cannot put the likelyhood of a qualified bystander into that equation because you cannot predict their availability. Lifeguards are hired to do a job, and should be trained as such, not heroes, but to play out protocol.

And now to play up that the kid died. That's just foul, and dirty play. There is nothing which gives any evidence that the lifeguards did their job wrong, nor is there anything which suggests a different outcome if this nurse performed the CPR herself. In fact, we know, as well as the nurse should know, resusitation has about a 10% success rate, true that number is higher for drowning cases. But it is a losing battle to begin with, and to use poor odds as ammunition for your cause is just dirty.

On a side note, I've seen lifeguards who couldn't save a word counter from FF26's scenarios. I think there is much room for improvement there, but not in the per chance arrival of bystanders. It should be a self suffecent system.

[FitSsikS]

"who unsuccessfully tried to revive......."

That phrase (frequently used by the media) misleads the public about cpr and it's place in emergency care.
IMO the "resuscitation" part of CPR should be de-emphasized.

If the boy's head wasn't tilted enough but air was going in...who cares?

However, if his chest never rose.........

Very sad, my heart goes out to his family.

[dentedhead]

At the risk of angerin Mrs DH(RN) I am tired of being approached and hearing Im a nurse or a doctor or a vet for that matter.Well good for them this isnt a an ER or ICU or a med/surg floor or a clinic, in other words not their element.

I have seen other articles where nurses have made claims had they been able to intervene the person would have lived,the TO marathon is an example.I think the article is in the forums somewhere.

I guess Ms.32yrs experience nursing and teaching...whats that adage about those who teach? Dint realize they use a modified jaw thrust and not the head tilt method of opening airways.As far as one handed compressions,its easy to mistake an 12yo for someone younger hell I took a 23yo hooker to sick kids because I thought she was only 16,oddly enough it was a drowning too.

The life guards did their best and unfortunatley they had a poor outcome.The armchair QBs are everywhere.

Dentedhead

[Ladymedic]

At the risk of angerin Mrs DH(RN) I am tired of being approached and hearing Im a nurse or a doctor or a vet for that matter.Well good for them this isnt a an ER or ICU or a med/surg floor or a clinic, in other words not their element.

I have seen other articles where nurses have made claims had they been able to intervene the person would have lived,the TO marathon is an example.I think the article is in the forums somewhere.

I guess Ms.32yrs experience nursing and teaching...whats that adage about those who teach? Dint realize they use a modified jaw thrust and not the head tilt method of opening airways.As far as one handed compressions,its easy to mistake an 12yo for someone younger hell I took a 23yo hooker to sick kids because I thought she was only 16,oddly enough it was a drowning too.

The life guards did their best and unfortunatley they had a poor outcome.The armchair QBs are everywhere.

Dentedhead


Amen to that Brother!!!!!

I can't count the number of times I've turned away help from well meaning Nurses........or the number of times I've had to undo their "treatment" at a scene (I would think a nurse would know NOT to put a pillow, blanket, wadded up coat etc under the head of a pedestrian/bicyclist that had just been struck by a car).

Not taking anything away from their skills, as DH said, they are out of their controlled environment and into our caotic one. There is absolutely nothing that they can do in the field that would render more care than we. On second thought............here mam, can you hold this light up here for us? Thanks.........

[ABFF37]

Amen to that Brother!!!!!

I can't count the number of times I've turned away help from well meaning Nurses........or the number of times I've had to undo their "treatment" at a scene (I would think a nurse would know NOT to put a pillow, blanket, wadded up coat etc under the head of a pedestrian/bicyclist that had just been struck by a car).

Not taking anything away from their skills, as DH said, they are out of their controlled environment and into our caotic one. There is absolutely nothing that they can do in the field that would render more care than we. On second thought............here mam, can you hold this light up here for us? Thanks.........


I too have seen simmilar things at emergency scenes by "well meaning" nurses and doctors. I have no problems with the ones that arrive on scene first, do the best that they can, and then step aside when emergency crews arrive to let us do the job that WE ARE TRAINED TO DO. It's the condescending ones that have this chip on their shoulder, thinking they know more than anyone else, that bug me...and ultimately are the ones that, if anything, endanger the life/safety of the patient.

For this 32 year veteran and seemingly self proclaimed wonder nurse to call the hard working lifeguards "nothing more than children trying to be heroes" smacks of egotism, and condesention. I hate to sounds like a pr!@k here, but if CPR needs to be performed, this is a bad situation to begin with. Granted drownings and near drownings involving children are a little bit different, but even so, the likelihood that this woman could have done anything different for those minutes before the firefighters and paramedics arrived is slim to none. If she was so sure that these lifeguards were doing such a poor job, then why didn't she say something right there at the scene? According to the article she offered her assistance and was refused based upon the policy of the pool. No mention is made of any other attempts made by her to assist on scene. So not only was she useless at the incident, now she makes things worse for the young lifeguards that did their best to help save a life, and to the family of the victim by casting uncertainty and doubt onto the care that their son recieved. Forgive me for saying this, but shame on her. At the end of the day, this was a HORRIBLY BAD situation from the beginning. In all the times that I have performed CPR, I have never seen anyone come back. But that doesn't mean that I think that I or my coworkers did anything wrong. Rather, the situation was out of our hands, and the dammage done to the patient beyond anyones repair...probably even this wonder nurse.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for nurses and other medical professionals. The future Mrs. ABFF37 is in nursing school right now, and her sister is an RN. But I have to say, if I went down in a public place and had a choice of being cared for by a nurse/doctor or a paramedic, I would take the paramedic in a second.

AB

[firefighter26]

I am pretty sure that the lifeguards are feeling bad enough about what happened that they don't need some "know it all" nurse/bystander pointing out that they, in her opinion, didn't perform CPR properly. They don't need that and the victims parents don't need that either, especially if they WERE doing it right.

Like someone said, chest goes up and down with vents and compressions move the blood. The rest is just counting outloud to yourself!

Then you have Mrs. Nurse herself. What makes her such a CPR expert? Because she can teach it? What is her save %? Has she ever had to do it in real life, outside the hospital or where-ever she works? How current are her tickets? How often does she teach? How often does he practice emergency medical procedures (and in the hospital doesn't count IMHO)?

Believe me, I have taken some medical and CPR courses with instructors that I wouldn't want working me, yet they are the ones with the fancy gold stickers who say they can teach. Does that make them an expert?

Like AB, I am batting .000 in my CPR career. Doesn't mean I was doing it wrong, but perhaps the situation was beyong the point when CPR is still effective. Speaking of which, every time I take a CPR course I hear different numbers concerning how effective it actually is. Anywhere from 1-5% in the field and 10-30% IN THE HOSPITAL! But we start CPR anyway, just as these lifeguards did, just like I would have, and just like any of us would have.

Would the result have been different? Doubtful

[Leafs Fan]

I would be interested to hear what the firefighters who were the first on scene had to say. I am sure they would be called to rebut if necessary this harsh critisism of the lifeguards. I would hope they would indicate for the deceased's family and the young lifeguards that as far as they could see all that could be, was being done. I would enjoy seeing their testimony discredit the retired nurse's testimony. Hopefully it would bring some closure to the greiving family and alleviate doubt or guilt from the young lifeguards who tried their best. There was no need to bring such malice and hurt to an already tragic situation.

[CrazyLadder]

Once again we have another case of not enough info. My wife is a licensed nurse and has stated many times that she wants nothing to do with working outside her hospital environment. She simply is trained for those scenerios. We once witnessed a MVC on a isolated country highway. Of coarse I stopped, I had a difficult time convince her to come help me tend to the injured, luckly no-one was injured bad as the ambulance was 20 minutes away. Lifeguards are trained for this environment, they are the first link in the chain of survival. It is a shame this boy died.

[irsqyu]

Of coarse I stopped, I had a difficult time convince her to come help me tend to the injured, luckly no-one was injured bad as the ambulance was 20 minutes away.

Glad she did help, just remember we are all just "First Aiders" in a scenario like that. We do what we can until those whose job it is to look after the scenario arrive. We then identify ourselves on their arrival, offer our assistance, and if they say no thanks, then so be it.
The same thing at work, if we arrive on scene and someone is performing first aid, we will usually ask them for details of what they have done, and take over if we have sufficient personnel for the situation, thanking them for helping out.:)

[hrecruit]

Like AB, I am batting .000 in my CPR career. Doesn't mean I was doing it wrong

me too 0 for 3 poor buggers.

[five_alarm]

MONCTON, NB - Diving masks are dangerous and should not be allowed in pools, a Saint John firefighter and water rescue expert told a coroner's inquest on Thursday. Doug Trentowsky was testifying at the inquest probing the death of Kyle Debow, 12, who drowned while wearing a mask in the deep end of a wave pool at Magic Mountain water park.... there are no standards for or against masks in Canadian pools, but he feels they are unsafe because they don't allow lifeguards to watch swimmers properly.
Source: cbc.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2006/06/29/nb-inquest-mask.html)

[fire16]

What would wearing a recreational mask while in the water have to do with a pool guards' ability to do his/her job?

[FitSsikS]

What would wearing a recreational mask while in the water have to do with a pool guards' ability to do his/her job?

The suggestion is that quite often a person wearing a scuba mask will hold their breath and lie face down face down (on the surface) while looking around. This young fellow was found in that position so there is some concern that he may have been ignored for an unknown period of time.