Sirens...all the time? [Archive] - The Firehall.com Forum

TTFFA

10-02-2006, 04:15 PM

BillyBlazes

10-02-2006, 04:26 PM

Accident involving fire apparatus during an emergency response.......the first question that is asked ...... was the lights and sirens on? Ambulance responding to emergency calls and then wait to the last second to use their sirens, shocks people because it seems to come from nowhere. Running with your sirens gives people a chance to see where you are coming from if they hear them in advance. We now use the new manual style windup siren and it is great, you can crank it up when there is alot of traffic or let it wind down with lower volume between intersections and quiet sections of the street.

dentedhead

10-02-2006, 04:27 PM

We have a certain Captain that makes his shift drive with the sirens on all the time.....From the time that the truck leaves the hall, until they reach the scene. It doesn't matter what time of day/traffic/ location...they are on all the time. Does any one else see a problem with this. I am all for the use of sirens and safe driving....but at 4 am with no traffic, is it necessary to have the sirens on? Of course approaching intersections, possible traffic..use them. I was told by a presenter of a health nd safety course that if sirens are left on all the time, other drivers are unable to distinguish where the sound originates from? Any one else have ant info in this? Thanks

TTFFA

Are you on my shift?LOL my capt does this all the time and it drives me nuts.Even at low traffic a couple shots at an intersection will do.

When I worked EMS I used the siren only when needed and I only had one accident running an emerg......with the siren on.

I thought this siren overuse was common to the FD but when I work on other shifts the use varies but none as constant as my cappie other than that hes great to work for.I know when I worked for TOEMS and we would request fire for a non emerg response they always came lit and hard,we were told it was a WSIB/insurance issue from their dept.

Anyways I feel your pain....AND HEARING LOSS!!!:rolleyes:

Dentedhead

Rivard17_343

10-02-2006, 07:24 PM

My capt's and chief says that the siren is to be on for every fire call for insurance reasons. (like Billy said "Accident involving fire apparatus during an emergency response.......the first question that is asked ...... was the lights and sirens on?) It would be hard to say " well there was no traffic on the road before the accident". Like what was stated before on other posts "we got it....use it!"

TTFFA

10-02-2006, 07:41 PM

Given you should use the sirens (and lights) but if it is 4am, and you are on a divided section of road, and there is NO traffic,or intersections...driving through town are the sirens a REQUIREMENT?...I am a huge advocate of safety, and will always siren on the side of safety, as well as slowing way down in intersections ( or stop) Do not get me wrong here if you have no sirens on and yo aer in an accident..you are screwed...but there is another argument here...if you respond to a call and have 20-25 minutes of drive time, so you not think that the sirens being on all time is excessive????
I guess they give you an on and off switch for a reason...
Thanks Dent, we seem to be on the same page.....

TTFFA

kriand

10-03-2006, 05:33 AM

All of our trucks have the foot pedal and horn hub for turning the siren on and off and changing the siren modes. All from the comfort of the drivers seat.
When I'm driving I'll turn it on when approaching all 4 way stops , intersections with traffic lights , bends in the road , and when coming up on traffic.

FireChef

10-03-2006, 08:30 AM

For us, unless we are dispatched for a routine call, we always run lights and sirens. I think for some people its a comfort, knowing that the FD (or Ambulance) is coming for their emergency. Just like when are new hall is built, we will keep our siren.

We have also been told that it is also to do with insurance purposes.

t_lag

10-03-2006, 08:55 AM

I think this comes down to legislation, at least in the province of Ontario. To the best of my knowledge, your not recognized as an emergency vehicle unless you have both emergency lights and a siren on. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers

Michael13

10-03-2006, 09:11 AM

I like to hear the siren while the rig is still 2-3 mins away. I can hear it and prepare to pull over way before the rig, ambulance, or cruiser is even close to your location. Our dept, I would say we don't use the siren enough. I use when driving, but alot of guys don't. My favorite is the air horn. It's the loudest and works the best.

MRWJ

10-03-2006, 09:16 AM

144. (1) In this section,

"emergency vehicle" means,

(a) a fire department vehicle as defined in section 61 while proceeding to a fire or responding to, but not while returning from, a fire alarm or other emergency call,

(b) a vehicle while used by a person in the lawful performance of his or her duties as a police officer,

(c) an ambulance while responding to an emergency call or being used to transport a patient or injured person in an emergency situation, or

(d) a cardiac arrest emergency vehicle operated by or under the authority of a hospital,

on which a siren is continuously sounding and from which intermittent flashes of red light are visible from all directions; ("véhicule de secours")

Thats from the Ontario Traffic Act. Notice "siren is continuously sounding". Sirens all the time? Why wouldn't you it's the law. I know my departments SOG's on driving code 4 is lights and sirens. I am sure most are. As for the sirens at 4 in the morning. I think that is the most important time. How many times have you been driving home and rolled through a four way stop because it's four in the morning and no one is around? Just my two cents.

Mike

85322FF

10-03-2006, 11:22 AM

There certainly are times when it seems excessive and even painful, My department issues hearing protection
either attached plugs or earmuff style for that reason... Down here you have the choice of responding in either an emergency mode or non emergency mode..
either with lights and sirens or none.. Often when we operate on limited access highways even just point to point driving we activate the rear flashers since we are typically moving slower then traffic, even though the posted limit is 55 mph in our area typically traffic is doing 60-70 average... for incidents ON the interstate/limited access highway studys have found sirens are nearly useless at highway speed, and often in heavy traffic is about the only time people follow the law and pull to the right to give you the right of way is when the incident is to the right side..lol.... with society being as sue happy as it is, here in the states even if your responding with red lights and sirens , stop at a traffic signal, before proceeding and as you go someone goes through anyway and you get in an accident, chances are you will end up in court over it..
At 4 am In the inner city our "limited use" is keeping it going at a moderate pitch level, and at certain intersections cranking it till the paint blows off the parked cars... typically the vehicles out there at that time are either paper delivery guys and taxi's or the crack heads driving around with the stereo so loud they cant hear you anyway.. when I drive it's on... If I come across a construction scene or people on the street I try not to hit it higher till, we've past if can definately cause hearing loss

rescuechris

10-03-2006, 04:54 PM

I could go with the standard cliché and say why use the siren since no one moves out of the way anyways, but the Montreal FD has recieved noise complaints about their ose of sirens and not only at 3-4 am but right in the middle of the afternoon. If the people got out of the way and paid attention on the road then we wouldn't need a siren. But until that day happens, long live the federal EQ2B and stutter tones!!!

grahamswain

10-04-2006, 05:14 AM

Its a pain in the ass as most people never get out of the way when they hear the tones anyway, we found that the big ait horns work better than sirens, not that we have them in London fire Brigade, but my old brigade had them and they were great, we generally use the foot pedal to turn the sirens off an on again at short intervals, giving a quick blast of the siren seems to work better than them been on all the time. We always run with light on though what ever the call.But please don't sit in traffic with them on, when your going no where, it just really pisses people off! and if you have 4-5 different types of tones on the truck..................Use them, dont stick to the same one.
Also shouting out the windows and calling people names seems to work...................but i never would!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ndvfd_ff33

10-04-2006, 01:42 PM

We use it when we first leave our firehall(along with heavy footed officers on airhorn) cuz we come into a pretty heavy traffic intersection..other than that when we see traffic we cram er on..After 11pm we usually don't even bother

iamvff

10-04-2006, 02:01 PM

Funny, I was chatting with an ambulance guy today and he said we should quit using our sirens because you should have seen the trail of vehicles following us out to a call the other night. You just can't win, no matter what you do!

iamvff

kriand

10-04-2006, 02:35 PM

Funny, I was chatting with an ambulance guy today and he said we should quit using our sirens
iamvff

Well, there's your first mistake.......

cdares

10-04-2006, 04:36 PM

In Nova Scotia, it is also the law for emergency vehicles to run lights and no sirens when responding to emergencies. If one is on, so is the other. Realizing it's a pain sometimes, especially the middle of the night, however, the law is the law- whether we like it or not...in our volunteer dept, however, we started running the first two units out code 1 (or code 4 in some places), and any other responding units go code 2 (no lights or siren), unless it is a confirmed fire. That minimizes the amount of trucks going screaming through town- realizing that some dept's, especially career only send one truck, it's a good way to minimize liability as well....just some thoughts

Bankerbob

10-05-2006, 05:01 AM

As annoying as this can be at 4:00 a.m. in the morning and little or no visable traffic the Alberta Hiway Traffic Act along with the Insurance Underwriters insist and in fact it is law that both lights and sirens must be used to respond to any dispatched emergancy call. Any accident as result of a response where lights and sirens where not in use shifts liability to the the dept.. We whill switch off the sirens when responding to a MVC on the hiway and no traffic is visable for some distance but will immediately switch them back on when approaching curves or blind spots, or for that matter driveways exiting on to the hiway and of course when coming up on approaching traffic. That is the only exception allowed .

red_dog_six

10-05-2006, 07:26 AM

rescuechris

10-05-2006, 02:26 PM

The other night I was responding to a call in zero visibility fog, i couldn't even see the tail lights from the car in fromt of me which means he probably couldn't see me. It was 2am but I hit the siren anyways... don't want to risk it.

FireNuke

10-06-2006, 06:21 AM

A hell....people complain of the noise, but if it were their house they would want you there as quick as possible!! So if it is neighbour Bob's house, can you please keep the noise down!!

So because I feed off negativity... especially others, the siren will stay on all the time no matter what time it is!!!

Yesterday morning 0800, tree hit by lightning and on fire in town, sirens were blaring from the hall right to the fire!!!

Folks have to realize they can't have it both ways!

Lets the tax payers know their money is being put to good use. If I am up at 3 in the morning why shouldn't everyone else be right. We have a lot of guys that shy away from using the sirens but it will only take one law suit to correct that. You not only have to worry about traffic but what about that person walking home after the bar who stumbles out in front of your truck. Didn't hear it coming. They are on the trucks for a reason so why not use them is my opinion

t_lag

10-10-2006, 06:18 AM

irsqyu

10-10-2006, 07:27 AM

I talked about this topic with one of the guy's last night on a call. He thinks it's the officer's responsibility to run the siren. I, however, believe it's the driver's responsibility seeing as he's the one driving the apparatus. Can anybody shed a bit more light on this one for me?

Cheers
You are right Tyler, the driver is totally responsible for the operation of the lights and sirens, he is in control of the vehicle and totally responsible for it. Being an officer myself, I don't know where an officer would find the time, on the way to a call as there are a myriad of things to be doing, looking in the map book, considering what the crew will be doing, thinking about water supply, whether it be hydrant or tanker shuttle. On the way in the officer should be checking data if it is a haz mat (or any other type)call, wind direction, any pre plan info. The Officer should also be taking the initial look at the scene so a proper size up can be given. In our vehicles the siren and light switches are out of reach of the Captain, we do have an air horn button should we see something the driver does not. :D

Scuba

10-10-2006, 08:38 AM

To add to irsqu's comments, it's the drivers responsiblity as the operator of the vehicle to comply with all the mumbojumbo legislation (lights/sirens/horns etc) it's the officers responsiblity as the employees supervisor to ensure that the operator of the vehicle is competant, trained, and capable to perform the tasks safely.... In the eyes of the law... they're just as, if not more responsiblity for the outcome.

If something happend the legality of it is that even if charges based on a HTA conviction come back on the driver, the officer is just as responsible from a OHSA even if he had no direct control over the situation he's still the supervisor incharge.

DCharv

10-10-2006, 08:40 AM

If our lights are on then the siren is going too. In our department the officer is responsible for the lights and siren (ie: changing tones at the intersection, electronic air horn, etc..).

irsqyu

10-10-2006, 11:57 AM

If our lights are on then the siren is going too. In our department the officer is responsible for the lights and siren (ie: changing tones at the intersection, electronic air horn, etc..).

That may work well in a rural setting, but no way in an urban environment. The average response time is 2 1/2 - 3 min, the officer has to make sure he has the correct building location as well as hydrant locations etc, making sure room is left for incoming units etc.etc. We have some dandy complexes within a minute or two, stacked townhomes etc. It takes a minute or so with the special map pages to sort out the correct unit. No time for sirens here. Also usually on the readio getting updates from communications.

t_lag

10-10-2006, 12:08 PM

Well it seems like I'm thinking like irsqyu does when I'm on my way to a call. Although I'm not an officer, still a rookie actually (1 month left!!) I do think the officer has a lot to be thinking about as well on the way to a scene, whether it be a rural or urban area. The set up in our truck makes the siren accessable only to the officer, so if it was up to me, I would just turn it on and leave till we get on scene. That way there, everyone's a$$ is covered.

Cheers

oldboot

10-10-2006, 12:22 PM

A lot of drivers I have had want the Captain to operate the siren and horn so it leaves them free to concentrate on the traffic and driving. That in itself has its own headaches in the city!
However nothing is carved in stone and I usually find the team approach works best, some calls the driver looks after it sometimes the Captain does it.
It should not be that complicated people…..Do what works best on a call per call basis.

OB

smoke286

10-10-2006, 02:59 PM

We do sometimes operate without siren, even though the highway traffic act clearly states both siren and red lights must be on while responding to an emergency. That being said some officers do like to control the siren. I have in the past while operating an emergency vehicle told the officer to turn the siren back on, as is well within my right. It is the operator's primary responsibility to get the vehicle and its crew safely to the emergency.

CrazyLadder

10-10-2006, 04:34 PM

Don't need no stinking siren...I can usually be heard sitting in the jump seat screaming at the idiots in front of use to get out of the way. LOL

ndvfd_ff33

10-10-2006, 05:38 PM

Woulda been nice if the dept around me used one today..Turn a corner to see mr.freightliner comin at me...Damn near hit a telephone pole....He turned it on Right before he entered the intersection though :rolleyes:

ndvfd_ff33

10-10-2006, 05:38 PM

ooooooooppppppppppppsssssssss

Rivard17_343

10-10-2006, 06:56 PM

Don't need no stinking siren...I can usually be heard sitting in the jump seat screaming at the idiots in front of use to get out of the way. LOL

lol! some of the guys on the dept love to use the PA function on our siren system for (politely....lol! ya right) asking people to move over. We had some strange looks from people sitting in thier yards as he goes past yelling at people!

smoke286

10-11-2006, 03:03 AM

lol! some of the guys on the dept love to use the PA function on our siren system for (politely....lol! ya right) asking people to move over. We had some strange looks from people sitting in thier yards as he goes past yelling at people!
An airhorn's worth a thousand words, two is worth two thousand :)

TruckCo11

10-11-2006, 04:36 AM

It sounds a lot the same up there for everyone, as it is down here. The only difference being that the drivers here (my dept. specifically) don’t have the siren controls within reach, so the boss has no choice, they’re in charge of it, which is fine with me. I really don’t want to worry about the siren and, having spent the majority of my career on a truck company, on the occasions I do drive the engine, my ability to think is usually taxed to the limit. But on a serious note, there is a lot to remember as a driver, and a lot of responsibility. Just trying to remember the address, dodging cars that are driven like it’s Mexico City, remembering where other companies are responding from, locating a hydrant or spotting the stick; it all makes for a whole lot to think about, and concentrate on.

The laws sound like they’re written the same in our two countries. I know in the state of Wisconsin, an emergency vehicle is not defined as such without all warning devices activated. The key is to just not have an accident, but as we all know, the way people drive makes that all but impossible.

I have to admit though, I am in fact jealous. It sounds as if the majority of your departments put those nice 'federal q's' on your rigs, we don't have them, it's actually against city ordinance here.

smoke286

10-11-2006, 05:39 AM

I have to admit though, I am in fact jealous. It sounds as if the majority of your departments put those nice 'federal q's' on your rigs, we don't have them, it's actually against city ordinance here.

Not here mate, in fact the Dept of Health & Safety came in and tested all our sirens to make sure they were within standard.

People pay no attention to sirens anymore here in the city, ambulances especially, however they usually scatter in the wake of a nice loud airhorn. :)

North_of_60

10-19-2006, 08:03 PM

This is the one great advantage to having a Air Raid Siren system to call out your department....
When you get a call at 4:00 AM, the air Raid Siren goes off so everyone is already awake, so I don't feel bad at all about using the siren on the truck :)

FYI, In the NWT an emergency vehicle must have an audible signal (bell or siren) and flashing lights to contravene any part of the Motor Vehicle Act, and the Driver is responsible for the safe opperation of the vehicle.

Stay Safe and when it doubt Use the Siren,

North of 60