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  #21  
Old 02-09-2006, 09:38 AM
PEMS17 PEMS17 is offline
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It isn't a matter of municipal vs. provincial. Both the Highway Traffic and Ambulance Act are provincially acts having jurisdiction on specific aspects. Unfortunately the municipal FF needs to be licensed by a provincial department to be eligible to operate an ambulance in Manitoba. FYI cops are not allowed either. The act clearly states who can or can't. Once again shitty situation for all parties involved.
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  #22  
Old 02-09-2006, 09:47 AM
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DFCSmash DFCSmash is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fire16
A lower jurisdiction can not impose higher restrictions than a "higher up" one can. I can't quite tell if both MB "acts" are on equal terms from this forum. ie provincial overrides municipal
Anywhere in AB, a ff with a class 4 (plus whatever other class they have) can drive a taxi or ambulance.
As I stated before, its almost irrelevent, as here in AB, I can obtain an AMB/TAXI lic. by taking a written test and a practical test in my "generic" car !
Uh, here in Manitoba, one can obtain their Class 4 (Taxi, Emergency Vehicle) by taking a written test and the driving test in their POV. You only need something larger for the practical for your air brake ticket.

I have driven our ambulance (pre-RHA) on more than one occasion. So that the 2 most qualified people can be with the patient providing care. I was also complimented on the smooth ride.

I can certainly both empathize and sympathise with Tom on this issue. It was a dreadful day for driving. I was out there that day (not at the accident scene, but on the skating rink they refer to as Hwy 1. Had an 80+ year old driver not lost control and crossed into the path of oncoming traffic, there would be no issue.

Blame game? The people in the real crap here will be the EMS people. Their rig, their rules, their "bad" call. The firefighter was helping as requested by them. It's a CRAP rule. But it's the rule. I was not aware of it, but have noticed that when patient care is required, the local service now only requests one of our members that is also a member of Ambulance. This is great, because it leaves us with one less set of more highly qualified, trained EMS hands on scene to deal with the lower triaged patients. They may not be much lower, but they are lower.

As an aside, does this make the remaining patients, victims?

How did anybody in Manitoba survive an ambulance call before the RHA system? Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy just knowing my best interests as a citizen and patient are always #1 with the RHA's.

RHA, btw = Regional Health Authority. A government program that espouses two of governments favorite lies. 1) Bigger is more efficient and therefore cheaper and better and 2) Don't complain we know far better than you do what is good for you.
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  #23  
Old 02-09-2006, 10:05 AM
Toxic Toxic is offline
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I had a great post typed up and my computer crashed...Sh!t.

Anyway I read the ambulance act. It reads like it was written by a medic with an agenda (I'm not making this statement to start a fight but it is my opinion). The way it's written it's almost impossible for someone who is not a medic to drive an ambulance. It referrs to an ambulance driver but does not spell out those qualifications clearly like the attendants etc. It does however say that all involved: driver, atttendant, air medics etc.. must be employed by the ambulance service.

Maybe we should just all miss the days when the ambulance were owned and operated by the fire departments. That way we are employees even if we weren't medics.
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  #24  
Old 02-09-2006, 11:14 AM
PEMS17 PEMS17 is offline
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Actually in the new act, the minimum will be EMR, no more "drivers". EMT is gone, and they finally recognize PCP and ACP.

I have to respond to the RHA comments though. As someone employed by an RHA operated service, I have to disagree. The patient care has improved in our case, evidence shown in call reports. Services that were community based did not have or spend the money wisely in regards to training. We now have regional training standards which allows full integration of employees. Also ALs trained staff can float to cover off holidays, heavy relief etc. knowing that there training is acceptable an expected in every community. RHA services are better able to communicate ( at least here) when requiring help from other stations. The quality assurance program in this region goes through one station and any problems are sent to the Education officer to be investigated. Serious issues are sent up the ladder. Minor ones are fixed through an education process.
The whole "big, bad RHA model may look bad from the outside but it does work and works well where I am. The god's honest truth, the only stations with major issues are the non-devolved community run services in the region. They don't want the training provided, disagree on QA procedures etc.
Perhaps the most disturbing thing is their "jurisdictional boundary" BS. One service in particular will have a coronary if a regional unit is dispatched by (911 to a call in their RM, despite the RHA unit being closer by 10 minutes. His argument " my citizen and we want the revenue."
I realize this is an isolated incident however, don't paint all with the broad brush. It can work, just needs the management. And that what was missing that fateful day in Headingley. A second unit should have been sent at a minimum. My sources say the unit was transporting three pts. If Cartier EMS does not activate mutual aid for MVA's from Portage, Carman or Springfield automatically, well maybe now they will. We NEVER roll only one unit to an MVA regardless of the dispatch info. First unit on scene can stand down the second.
Just some humble thoughts. Once again I will state, the FF involved was put in a terrible situation by a mismanagement of the EMS resources. I hope the fallout will address the problem so it is rectified and does reoccur.
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  #25  
Old 02-09-2006, 11:27 AM
PEMS17 PEMS17 is offline
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I challenge the minister, tim sale to come out and do some ride alongs to get a real feel for what happens out there and show him there is real life and death decisions being made outside of the wpg perimeter. I understand that the city of wpg is NOT bound by this rule as they have there own insurance, nice to have a two tiered health dervice plan eh??

sorry still pod,
Tom[/quote]
Winnipeg is bound by this rule as far as I know just like everyone else. The difference is this: Their FF's are part of a amalgamated service with EMS and as such they " the city of WPG." can apply to MB Health to have their FF's licensed EMS practitioners. That way a fire guy or gal can jump behind the wheel and drive or get in the back and perform their scope of practise and nobody gets into crap. Everybody including the beauracrats (sp?) is happy
PS good luck with Sale, let me know when you will be storming Broadway and I'll bring a van load.
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  #26  
Old 02-09-2006, 01:33 PM
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cjklassen cjklassen is offline
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Default Fire Fighters driving Ambulances

I have been with the Winnipeg Fire Paramedic service for over ten years as a firefighter and have not seen or heard of any incident where a firefighter has driven an ambulance. The almagamation is strictly administrative and the ambulances are still owned and funded by the regional health autority.

I do agree that this rule does not put the patient first when you could possibly have 2 advanced care paramedics in the back and have a firefighter drive the ambulance.

Politics!

CJ
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  #27  
Old 02-09-2006, 01:46 PM
PEMS17 PEMS17 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjklassen
I have been with the Winnipeg Fire Paramedic service for over ten years as a firefighter and have not seen or heard of any incident where a firefighter has driven an ambulance. The almagamation is strictly administrative and the ambulances are still owned and funded by the regional health autority.

I do agree that this rule does not put the patient first when you could possibly have 2 advanced care paramedics in the back and have a firefighter drive the ambulance.

Politics!

CJ
So................ what do they do, Pumper or rescue shows up for first response. PCP and ACP show with the bus and Medical Supervisor turns up (if necessary) and then the PCP drives? Who is in the back? ACP and FF's with the supervisor as necessary? Are the crosstrained FF's not licensing with health? If not, that service in the city is worse than I thought. WOW

Last edited by PEMS17 : 02-09-2006 at 02:01 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #28  
Old 02-09-2006, 03:11 PM
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fire16 fire16 is offline
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Lets give a scenario: ( from an AB guy) Licensing beurea says I have the right documents to drive an amb/taxi. How can amb act say I have to be an employee of a whatever above and beyond that. Does not the "lower" act recognize the "higher" act? A license to drive is just that, granted from the province.
If another act puts stipulations to that, the two are at odds with each other, in my humble opinion!
Went through this ourselves recently. Anyone with a class 4 can drive an amb (with passengers) wether they are a medic, emr,emt, emt-a, ff, paramedic, union member etc. Bottom line, that person is licensed by the prov to drive a amb. and can do so. Any other jurisdiction under the prov. has to abide.
So, did said FF have appropriate lic. under one act but not another? the 2 acts therefore are in conflict.
ff"s fault for not knowing both acts - not likely ! Did/should he know which holds precedence? not likely did anyone inform his dept or him that they couldn't legally drive the amb? not likely

another of my nickels worth
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  #29  
Old 02-09-2006, 06:22 PM
PEMS17 PEMS17 is offline
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My take on it is this, driving the bus is part of the job function of EMR, PCP, EMT, ACP etc etc. Driving the thing down the road IS and always HAS BEEN a part of patient care. As such it is under the jurisdiction of the government department that licences medical practioners in their jurisdiction.

There are loads of government actsthat overlap. eg. The HTA and police services, both are equally binding and yes sometimes it doesn't make sense.
Just because the Feds give me a gun license doesn't mean I can start my own police force. Their are regulations on operating police services and if you look at the MB act, it even contains info on gun possesion, ownership, and how and when to use. Acts always have and always will overlap
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  #30  
Old 02-10-2006, 12:17 PM
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mutts252 mutts252 is offline
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it's already been said, but i would sure rather have two ACP's working on me in the back and a FF driving, than 'waste' an ACP by having him take the wheel... sheesh if this is how they operate, they should look into plain old "ambulance drivers" with no medical training to drive the bus... frustrating issue
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