I wont lie to you guy's

Relax and exchange a few words with other fire and rescue members from across Canada...
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I wont lie to you guy's

Postby bdbd » Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:18 pm

i wont lie to you guy's i am not a fire fighter i am a tax payer .. who love to have firefighter working for me in my community.

here is my problem and i want you guy's to let me know if i am rigth or just stupid
my township want to buy a truck http://www.customtecfire.com/available-014.htm
me and a lot of tax payer think that for a 1985 167000 $ is too expensive
and we are afraid that the truck wont meet the law regulation soon cause we buy it to use it as a primary truck i persanally think we should invole a couple more buck and have a truck that doesnt have 20 yo and we have to keep that truck for the next 20 year

i think as a tax payer that we should go
for a truck like http://lasso.firetec.com/detail/TK-6887.html
and modified it for our need

i would apreciate your feedback asap
cause the next meeting is tuesday night
and i am going 200% againts that
so prove me right or prove me wrong
i will listen to you all
and yes again i wont lie to you i am french
thanks again

yan :confused:

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Postby LFD_FF17 » Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:24 pm

I am not a Firefighter either, I am also not a taxpayer, I am just a 17 year old kid that has always wanted to be a firefighter so I try to gain as much knowledge as possible about it. I agree with you and I think your city or town should put in the extra money to buy the best truck they can get. It will cost less for them to buy one good one now and have it for 20 years as opposed to buying a 20 year old one and using it for 5 years and then buying another 20 year old one. Here in Edmonton we just bought 14 new pumps and they were each $750 000+ and the replaced rigs from the early 80's. We are also getting 2 new aerials that will replace ones from the late 70's. So we got alot of bang for our buck when we bought those trucks way back when.

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Postby FireEMTGuy » Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:16 am

Where are you from?

I suggest bringing up the point that NFPA (National Firefighter Protection Association) requires that a FIRST OUT pump or truck be NO MORE than 10 years old.

I suggest spending the money on a new truck.

Check out superior out of Red Deer Alberta. They make quality pumps.


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Postby bcfire » Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:18 am


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Postby bfrd22 » Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:06 pm

I am a firefighter and an EVT.

Ist let me say I have purchased a rescue unit from Customtec and they are good stand up people. And I would buy a used unit from them again. The Rescue we purchased was bought as a hold over with an expected operation of 10 yrs to be replaced with a new unit ( emergency purchase and not a lot of money at the tme).
Now for my thoughts on this unit.
1985 Is at the point that it would be well into a reserve unit. not front line.

General rule of thumb is 20 years for a pumper,

Per the IAO in Canada, which is the Insurers Advisory Organizatoin

15 years 1st alarm response duties.
then retired to reserve or backup status for 5 years.

Now the IAO recognizes that municipalities cannot alway afford new apparatus and or will utilize an apparatus beyond the the 20yrs, However they reccommend that the apparatus be recertificed for annually to ensure that it meets it original ratings and copies of the annual test forwarded to the IAO to enable them to detremine adequacy of the apparatus for insurance grading purposes.

While this unit has a lot of bells and whistles and with Custom chassis and similar eqiupment this unit could reach a half million new.

But a Commercial Chasssis tanker with midship pump would be with the same appointments and meeting all current standards is going to run you 250 to 300,000

IMO this would be an excellent back up unit, but not front line.

Concider that an average New unit will cost the community approx 15,000 a year over the life of the unit (based over 20 years with routine maint and testing).

I'm going to guess a service life remaing on this of 10 yrs. (engine wear is the equivant of 350.000 Km at 2850 hrs)

Due to age and avaliblity of parts ths unit would run around $4000 a year in maint, and testing.

So your operational costs based on 10 yrs is gong to be around 20,500 per year.

I would ask that the replacement of an Apparautus NOT be opposed but that you spend an extra $100,000 and get purchase an new unit or "Demo" unit. for about another $50,000 that will still have full Warranty and a good 18 years behind it.
If it ain't broke.....Give it to a Fireman for a while.
Never be afraid to call out for more chrome. If you can't put it out, Scare it out.

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hey hey you guy's help me a lot ..

Postby bdbd » Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:21 pm

you guy help me but the only thing can you please tell me where to find document are they online like the nfpa and iao does the recomendation are online
cause if i have someting to prove what i say firefighter and concil will glad to hear what i say


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Postby Red_Devil » Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:44 pm

Im gonna play the devils advocate cause thats what i enjoy doing. You gotta also realize to look at your call volume and cost justication. If your city or town or whatever you live in, doesnt run that many calls, then why buy a brand new truck and have it sit in a hall idle for peroids of time, fire trucks are trucks that HAVE to be driven and pumps ran and stuff like that on a daily basis or else the trucks acts up. Consider this as well, if you look at any fire apparratus industry publications you see lots of resells of newer trucks, yes some of these trucks are for resell cause depts are upgrading but a lot of these trucks are for sale cause of downsizing, the rural community realizing they cant afford to keep a 3 quarters of a million dollars truck idle. Yes your township maybe wrong for buying an older truck but maybe then can look into buying something in between a older truck and a brand spanking new one. You would be surprised what you can get in a fairly new resell.

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Postby WFD999 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:39 am

Maybe bfrd22 Can answer this one. Does not the NFPA allow one to put a new chassis under the servicebody and do a complete rebuild on the on the pump and be able to be certified for another 10 years?

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Postby bfrd22 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:08 am

Yes I can ;)
NFPA 1912 Standard for Fire Apparatus Refurbishing 2001 ed.

In a nut shell It states that a refurbished unit must be brought up to meet Current 1901 Standards, 2003 ed in this case.

If the vendor agrees in this case to meet the 1912 (2001). standard this dept will have a unit that would last another 20 years.

There are 2 levels of Refurb, a level 1 and level 2

Level 1, unit ugraded to meet current standards

Level 2 unit meets NFPA standards at the date of orginal Manufactuer, but certain items must be upgraded to new standards.

A side from the upgrades required all major compnents must be inspected to be with in the manufactures tolerances or replaced.

either way these are very elaborate rebuilds.

I have know several depts to rechassis a unit and due upgrades, In some situations it's cheaper to just go new, as often older tanks and body constuction are not really going to hold up for another 20 yrs.

Now if you already own the unit and are looking for another 10 yrs out of a 20 year old unit. A level 2 refurb is the way to go. for about 30 to 40 grand you can get some more life of of the old girl.

Agian this depends on the dept and call volume. Frankly in some dept a 10 year old truck has to go in for a level 2 refurb just to get the 20 years out of em. Others can keep a unit going for 30 years with a good program.

Again you have to look at the annual cost benefits. $40,000 to get another 10yrs is a good deal.

$140,000 rebuild may not be, depending on the replacement cost of a new unit. also concieder that you need to arrainging funds for a replacement at the same time your paying for the refurb.

You have to weight the cost benefit of them both, Again you have to work with what you can afford.

The big thing to remember is that you have to have enough pumps and water transport capacity to meet your municipalities fire load rating. eg. My towns fire load rating is 2000 gpm.

So My water supply system and my "Certified units" must be able to produce this at all times. So we have a 1250 and 1050 front line pumper with an 840 Reserve / Brush unit. Thsi allows us to be close to our targets at times when a unit may be out of service our out on a Mutal aid call.

And as I stated earlier our Rescue (16 ft walkin) is a complete NFPA1912 refurb from Custom tec. And will be replaced in 5 years (10 year purchase). This will no doubt be down graded to a light rescue reserve unit at the end of it's term.
If it ain't broke.....Give it to a Fireman for a while.

Never be afraid to call out for more chrome. If you can't put it out, Scare it out.

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Postby ehetu » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:05 pm

The second truck you refer to doesn't appear to be in the same class as the first: the little Chev appears to be a much smaller 2-man chassis with an 800GPM pump suitable as a rapid attack vehicle while the Simon is a 1500GPM pumper with a 5-man crew that is good for general response.

I don't think you need brand new trucks to do the job... but your primary vehicles must be reliable. I'd hesitate to put the Simon unit as your town's primary response vehicle unless you've got a good solid backup... I seem to recall an embarassing situation this summer when two of some small town's fire trucks broke down on the way to a fire. Many towns, including ours, are getting into leasing firetrucks and transfering capital costs to yearly operating costs... it gets you some solid, reliable apparatus without the sticker shock that makes taxpayers jump out of their seats at budget time. It also helps in long-term planning.

Chelsea, QC

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